Test Your Knowledge

[dUSt]

Go here:
[url="http://www.script-teez.com/"]http://www.script-teez.com/[/url]

Reply in this thread with what directly contradicts Catholic teaching.

[Theoketos]

[quote]We also believe that all Scriptures were designed for our practical instruction.[/quote]

While this is true, if seen in a certain light can lead to false conculsions

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
10/11 - Bl. John XXIII

[quote]We believe the whole Bible in the originals is therefore without error.[/quote]

No, the Greek Bible is what is infallible.

[quote]We also believe that this spiritual death, or total depravity of human nature, has been transmitted to the entire human race of man, [/quote]

No, man was never totally depraved - just cut off from the ability to enter Heaven. Man was sinful, not depraved.

And that entire section entitled [b]The Second Coming of Christ[/b] is phishy, at best.

[Theoketos]

[quote]We believe that man was originally created in the image of God and after the likeness of God, and that man fell through sin, and as a consequence of his sin, lost his spiritual life, becoming dead in trespasses and sins, and that he became subject to the power of the devil.[/quote]

Christopher West has a great reply to the arguement of total deprevity....From the Theology of the Body...

Even after the fall Man images the God in sonship, evident in his relationship with his son Seth (whose name means image Gen 5:3), but even more clearly in the shame which Adam and Eve experience.

For it is shame, in a positive sense, shows a value of sexual attributes. They covered what could be abused for each other's protection. To Avoid Sin.

[quote name=' Genesis 3:7']Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.[/quote]

If they were totally deprived they would have reveled in their sinfulness, becoming even more [i]shameless[/i]. Instead they reacted against their sin, almost in immediate repentance.

[Theoketos]

[quote] and that His earth-life sometimes functioned within the sphere of that which was human and sometimes within the sphere that was dIvine (Luke 2:40; John 1:1-2; Phil. 2:5-8).[/quote]

Really these scripture passages point to Jesus being True God and True Man, from all time, not this half ~ um never mind that word ~ stuff

This goes against the Catholic Notion of Hypostatic Union, which means that His nature is unseperable...

Hypostatic Union

A theological term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealed truth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human. Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation. Hence it came to be used by the Greek philosophers to denote reality as distinguished from appearances (Aristotle, "Mund.", IV, 21). It occurs also in St. Paul's Epistles (II Cor., ix, 4; xi, 17; Heb., i, 3:iii, 14), but not in the sense of person. Previous to the Council of Nicæa (325) hypostasis was synonymous with ousia, and even St. Augustine (De Trin., V, 8) avers that he sees no difference between them. The distinction in fact was brought about gradually in the course of the controversies to which the Christological heresies gave rise, and was definitively established by the Council of Chalcedon (451), which declared that in Christ the two natures, each retaining its own properties, are united in one subsistence and one person (eis en prosopon kai mian hpostasin) (Denzinger, ed. Bannwart, 148). They are not joined in a moral or accidental union (Nestorius), nor commingled (Eutyches), and nevertheless they are substantially united. For further explanation and bibliography see: INCARNATION; JESUS CHRIST; MONOPHYSITISM; NATURE; PERSON.

NewAdvent.org

[Theoketos]

General Judgment (end times)

(Judicium Universale, Last Judgment).

I. EXISTENCE OF THE GENERAL JUDGMENT

1. Few truths are more often or more clearly proclaimed in Scripture than that of the general judgment. To it the prophets of the Old Testament refer when they speak of the "Day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31; Ezekiel 13:5; Isaiah 2:12), in which the nations will be summoned to judgment. In the New Testament the second Parusia, or coming of Christ as Judge of the world, is an oft-repeated doctrine. The Saviour Himself not only foretells the event but graphically portrays its circumstances (Matthew 24:27 sqq.; 25:31 sqq.). The Apostles give a most prominent place to this doctrine in their preaching (Acts 10:42; 17:31) and writings (Romans 2:5-16; 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; James 5:7). Besides the name Parusia (parousia), or Advent (1 Corinthians 15:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:19), the Second Coming is also called Epiphany, epiphaneia, or Appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:13), and Apocalypse (apokalypsis), or Revelation (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Peter 4:13). The time of the Second Coming is spoken of as "that Day" (2 Timothy 4:8), "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2), "the day of Christ" (Philemon 1:6), "the day of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:30), "the last day" (John 6:39-40).

2. The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead" (Apostles' Creed). He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead" (Nicene Creed). "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds" (Athanasian Creed). Relying on the authority of Papias, several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years' terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World (see article on MILLENNIUM). Though this idea is interwoven with the eschatological teachings of those writers, it in no way detracted from their belief in a universal world-judgment. Patristic testimony to this dogma is clear and unanimous.

3. The Roman Catechism thus explains why, besides the particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world: "The first reason is founded on the circumstances that most augment the rewards or aggravate the punishments of the dead. Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place. . . . Finally, it was important to prove, that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is ordered by an all-wise, all-just, and all-ruling Providence: it was therefore necessary not only that rewards and punishments should await us in the next life but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment."

II. SIGNS THAT ARE TO PRECEDE THE GENERAL JUDGMENT

The Scriptures mention certain events which are to take place before the final judgment. These predictions were not intended to serve as indications of the exact time of the judgment, for that day and hour are known only to the Father, and will come when least expected. They were meant to foreshadow the last judgment and to keep the end of the world present to the minds of Christians, without, however, exciting useless curiosity and vain fears. Theologians usually enumerate the following nine events as signs of the last judgment:

1. General Preaching of the Christian Religion. Concerning this sign the Saviour says: "And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come" (Matthew 24:14). This sign was understood by Chrysostom and Theophilus as referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, but, according to the majority of interpreters, Christ is here speaking of the end of the world.

2. Conversion of the Jews. According to the interpretation of the Fathers, the conversion of the Jews towards the end of the world is foretold by St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans (11:25-26): "For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob".

3. Return of Enoch and Elijah. The belief that these two men, who have never tasted death, are reserved for the last times to be precursors of the Second Advent was practically unanimous among the Fathers, which belief they base on several texts of Scripture. (Concerning Elijah see Malachi 4:5-6; Ecclesiasticus 48:10; Matthew 17:11; concerning Enoch see Ecclesiasticus 44:16.)

4. A Great Apostasy. As to this event St. Paul admonishes the Thessalonians (2 Thessalonians 2:3) that they must not be terrified, as if the day of the Lord were at hand, for there must first come a revolt (he apostasia).The Fathers and interpreters understand by this revolt a great reduction in the number of the faithful through the abandonment of the Christian religion by many nations. Some commentators cite as confirmatory of this belief the words of Christ: "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?" (Luke 18:8).

5. The Reign of Antichrist. In the passage above mentioned (2 Thessalonians 2:3 sqq.) St. Paul indicates as another sign of the day of the Lord, the revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition. "The man of sin" here described is generally identified with the Antichrist, who, says St. John (1 John 2:18), is to come in the last days. Although much obscurity and difference of opinion prevails on this subject, it is generally admitted from the foregoing and other texts that before the Second Coming there will arise a powerful adversary of Christ, who will seduce the nations by his wonders, and persecute the Church.

6. Extraordinary Perturbations of Nature. The Scriptures clearly indicate that the judgment will be preceded by unwonted and terrifying disturbances of the physical universe (Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25-26). The wars, pestilences, famines, and earthquakes foretold in Matthew 24:6 sq., are also understood by some writers as among the calamities of the last times.

7. The Universal Conflagration. In the Apostolic writings we are told that the end of the world will be brought about through a general conflagration, which, however, will not annihilate the present creation, but will change its form and appearance (2 Peter 3:10-13; cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:2; Apocalypse 3:3, and 16:15). Natural science shows the possibility of such a catastrophe being produced in the ordinary course of events, but theologians generally tend to believe that its origin will be entirely miraculous.

8. The Trumpet of Resurrection. Several texts in the New Testament make mention of a voice or trumpet which will awaken the dead to resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; John 5:28). According to St. Thomas (Supplement 86:2) there is reference in these passages either to the voice or to the apparition of Christ, which will cause the resurrection of the dead.

9. "The Sign of the Son of Man Appearing in the Heavens." In Matthew 24:30, this is indicated as the sign immediately preceding the appearance of Christ to judge the world. By this sign the Fathers of the Church generally understand the appearance in the sky of the Cross on which the Saviour died or else of a wonderful cross of light.

III. CIRCUMSTANCES ACCOMPANYING THE GENERAL JUDGMENT

1. Time. As was stated above, the signs that are to precede the judgment give no accurate indication of the time when it will occur (Mark 13:32). When the Disciples asked the Saviour: "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" He answered: "It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:6-7). The uncertainty of the day of judgment is continually urged by Christ and the Apostles as an incentive to vigilance. The day of the Lord will come "as a thief" (Matthew 24:42-43), like lightning suddenly appearing (Matthew 24:27), like a snare (Luke 21:34), as the Deluge (Matthew 24:37).

2. Place of the Judgment. All the texts in which mention is made of the Parusia, or Second Coming, seem to imply clearly enough that the general judgment will take place on the earth. Some commentators infer from 1 Thessalonians 4:16, that the judgment will be held in the air, the newly risen being carried into the clouds to meet Christ; according to others the prophecy of Joel (3:1 sq.) places the last judgment in the Valley of Josaphat.

3. The Coming of the Judge. That this judgment is ascribed to Christ, not only as God, but also as Man, is expressly declared in Scripture; for although the power of judging is common to all the Persons of the Trinity, yet it is specially attributed to the Son, because to Him also in a special manner is ascribed wisdom. But that as Man He will judge the world is confirmed by Christ Himself (John 5:26-27). At the Second Coming Christ will appear in the heavens, seated on a cloud and surrounded by the angelic hosts (Matthew 16:27; 24:30; 25:31). The angels will minister to the Judge by bringing all before Him (Matthew 24:31). The elect will aid Christ in a judicial capacity (1 Corinthians 6:2). The lives of the just will in themselves be a condemnation of the wicked (Matthew 21:41), whose punishment they will publicly approve. But the Apostles will be judges of the world in a sense yet more exact, for the promise that they shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28) seems to imply a real participation in judicial authority. According to a very probable opinion, this prerogative is extended to all who have faithfully fulfilled the counsels of the Gospel (Matthew 19:27-28). Nothing certain is known as to the manner in which this delegated authority will be exercised. St. Thomas conjectures that the greater saints will make known the sentence of Christ to others (Supplement 88:2).

4. Those to be Judged. All men, both good and bad, according to the Athanasian Creed, will appear in the judgment to give an account of their deeds. As to children that have personally done neither good nor evil, the baptized must be distinguished from the unbaptized. The former appear in the judgment, not to be judged, but only to hold the glory of Christ (Supplement 80:5), while the latter, ranked with the wicked, although not judged, will be enabled to realize the justice of their eternal loss (Suarez). The angels and the demons will not be judged directly, since their eternal destiny has already been fixed; yet, because they have exercised a certain influence over the fortunes of men, the sentence pronounced on the latter will have a corresponding effect on them also (Supplement 89:8).

5. Object of the Judgment. The judgment will embrace all works, good or bad, forgiven as well as forgiven sins, every idle word (Matthew 12:36), every secret thought (1 Corinthians 4:5). With the exception of Peter Lombard, theologians teach that even the secret sins of the just will be made manifest, in order that judgment may be made complete and that the justice and mercy of God may be glorified. This will not pain or embarrass the saints, but add to their glory, just as the repentance of St. Peter and St. Mary Magdalen is to these saints a source of joy and honour.

6. Form of the Judgment. The procedure of the judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46, and in the Apocalypse 20:12. Commentators see in those passages allegorical descriptions intended to convey in a vivid manner the fact that in the last judgment the conduct and deserts of each individual will be made plain not only to his own conscience but to the knowledge of the assembled world. It is probable that no words will be spoken in the judgment, but that in one instant, through a Divine illumination, each creature will thoroughly understand his own moral condition and that of every fellow creature (Romans 2:15). Many believe, however, that the words of the sentence: "Come, ye blessed", etc. and "Depart from me", etc. will be really addressed by Christ to the multitude of the saved and the lost.

IV. RESULTS OF THE GENERAL JUDGMENT

With the fulfilment of the sentence pronounced in the last judgment the relations and the dealings of the Creator with the creature find their culmination, are explained and justified. The Divine purpose being accomplished, the human race will, as a consequence, attain its final destiny. The reign of Christ over mankind will be the sequel of the General Judgment.

NewAdvent.org

A good response to the Second Coming Section would be to look at when the prophacies might have been fulfilled. It is my understanding that they already have been before the destruction of the temple.

[Theoketos]

LEFT BEHIND Apr-12-2004 (1,290 words) With book cover posted June 17, 2003. xxxn
'Left Behind' series called 'overtly anti-Catholic'

By Jerry Filteau
Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) -- The wildly popular "Left Behind" series of Christian apocalyptic novels denies a number of Catholic teachings and "is both subtly and overtly anti-Catholic," says an article in The Living Light, an official quarterly publication of the U.S. bishops' Department of Education.

Half of the winter 2003 issue of the quarterly was devoted to feature articles on the "Left Behind" series, the fundamentalist "rapture doctrine" behind it, a Catholic understanding of the end times when Christ will come again, and the large gap religious educators see between what Catholics know and what they should know about church teaching in that area.

The articles' authors warned that Catholics, especially young Catholics, could easily be drawn into such fundamentalist teachings if they have not received solid formation in Catholic teaching about the last things -- death, judgment, heaven and hell.

The issue appeared, coincidentally, shortly before the 12th and final novel in the series, "Glorious Appearing," hit bookstores March 30 with an initial printing of 2 million copies.

Since the series was begun in 1995 by authors Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, its first 11 novels have sold more than 40 million copies. When a spinoff youth series and video and audio versions are added, the numbers of copies reportedly climb to around 60 million.

"While they appear to be based on the Bible, the 'Left Behind' books actually promote a nonbiblical fear in opposition to Catholic teaching about a hope-filled end time," wrote religious educator Joyce S. Donahue in an article analyzing the theology of the series in relation to Catholic teaching.

Donahue, associate director for children's catechesis of the Diocese of Joliet, Ill., helped write the Illinois Catholic Conference's assessment of the "Left Behind" books and videos issued last year.

In The Living Light she gave a brief synopsis of the first 11 books, starting with the first, when "mysteriously, all over the world, all small children and 'good' adults suddenly disappear." The central characters in the story learn that those who disappeared were taken up to heaven in the "rapture" before the seven years of global tribulation that -- according to rapture belief -- will precede Christ's second coming.

After synopsizing each of the novels, Donahue cited some of the key conflicts between the theories propounded by LaHaye and Jenkins and Catholic teaching, beginning with their approach to the Book of Revelation and other apocalyptic passages of Scripture.

"Any fundamentalist reading of apocalyptic Scripture is not Catholic teaching. ... Catholics should know that 'The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church' (by the Pontifical Biblical Commission) says that any literal reading of portions of the Bible written in nonliteral, literary forms distorts the meaning," she said.

"A seven-year tribulation between the 'rapture' and the return of Christ is not biblical. Scripture teaches that Christ will come after a period of tribulation and that all believers will at that time be taken up to heaven to be with him," she wrote.

Rapture theology relies on an interpretation of the passage in St. Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians where he says that when Christ comes a second time "the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

The word "rapture" comes from the Latin verb "rapere," which was used in St. Jerome's Latin translation of that passage to express the notion of the just being "caught up" with the Lord.

But as Donahue and the author of another article, theologian Paul Thigpen, pointed out, rapture theology ends up teaching about a third coming of Christ -- first in his birth in Bethlehem, second in his secret coming to snatch away the just before the tribulations of the end time, and third at the end of the world to reign in glory.

Catholic and mainstream Christian teaching holds that when Christ comes in glory at the end of this age it will be his second coming, not his third.

Donahue commented, "A 'second chance' at salvation (for those not taken up in the second coming) is not biblical. ... We will all, at the same time, receive the final judgment -- Mt 13:37-43. The postrapture, prejudgment scenario in the 'Left Behind' books borders on Pelagianism because characters seem to be working to redeem themselves." An early heresy in Christianity, Pelagianism held that grace depended on human initiative, not on God's initiative.

Donahue also wrote that the "Left Behind" books present a "harsh and judgmental" image of God, offer a theology of suffering that is not Catholic -- the rapture saves the good from the trials of the end time -- and "deny the efficaciousness of baptism."

On the nonbaptismal approach to salvation, she wrote that "people in the series are saved at a specific moment by saying a verbal formula," and in the first volume of the children's series "a minister describes this to the kids as a 'transaction ... a deal.' Salvation takes place only when a person tells Jesus Christ that he or she accepts salvation."

"In contrast," she wrote, "the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a process effected and celebrated in the sacraments of initiation and continuing through Christian life."

She described a number of ways in which the series is anti-Catholic, including the portrayal of "a self-centered, obese American cardinal" becoming pope in an election rigged by the Antichrist and then leading "the Antichrist's new one-world religion."

In another article Thigpen, author of "The Rapture Trap: A Catholic Response to 'End Times' Fever," traced the emergence of rapture theology to an early 19th-century Chilean Jesuit named Manuel Lacunza who proposed a theory that those who receive the Eucharist often will be taken up early at the end of the world and be spared the final 45 days of terrible judgments visited on the rest of the world.

Rome condemned his writing as doctrinally unsound, Thigpen said, but it was translated into English by the Rev. Edward Irving of the Church of Scotland, one of the earliest Protestant preachers of the secret rapture, who was excommunicated from his own church for teaching that Christ's human nature was sinful.

Thigpen said it is unclear to what extent Rev. Irving may have influenced the Rev. John Nelson Darby, leader of a small English sect who traveled to the United States and Canada seven times between 1859 and 1874 to spread his teachings about the secret rapture, becoming the chief historical influence behind rapture teaching in North America.

"Since most Catholics are unaware of its dubious origins," Thigpen wrote, "they need a more careful catechesis in eschatology (the theology of the last things) to help them avoid the problems of the rapture trap."

Other feature articles in the same issue of The Living Light include a Catholic overview of the Book of Revelation, the book of the Bible that is the source of most apocalyptic and millennial theories of how the world will end, and a glossary of terms and concepts dealing with the last things that Catholic catechists should be familiar with.

There is also an article that reflects on how every Catholic celebration of the Eucharist envisions the eschaton, or end time, as "something in which we can truly hope and for which we can joyfully wait" -- in sharp contrast to the fearfully apocalyptic view found in rapture theology.

[dUSt]

Thanks guys.

I agreed to help these t-shirt fellas out with their website before I realized that they'd be putting up theological ideas as well. One of the guys is a Catholic, so I assumed it would be limited to a generic Christian t-shirt site.

Now I'm torn as to whether or not to continue to help them out...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Oct 11 2004, 05:50 PM'] Thanks guys.

I agreed to help these t-shirt fellas out with their website before I realized that they'd be putting up theological ideas as well. One of the guys is a Catholic, so I assumed it would be limited to a generic Christian t-shirt site.

Now I'm torn as to whether or not to continue to help them out... [/quote]
Well, try to correct them, I'd say. Cooperation in spreading false theology can be terribly sinful, and I know you wouldn't do it, so try to convert them.

If it comes to it, I'd tell them that you can't in good conscience help them out anymore.

[mulls]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Oct 11 2004, 01:23 PM']
Reply in this thread with what directly contradicts Catholic teaching. [/quote]

they don't sell phatmass t-shirts

[FutureSoror]

[quote]We believe that the Godhead eternally exists in three persons, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit- and that these are one God, having precisely the same nature[/quote]

Tell me if I'm missing something, but doesn't Christ have two natures? The nature of God, and the nature of man.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Oct 11 2004, 06:50 PM'] Thanks guys.

I agreed to help these t-shirt fellas out with their website before I realized that they'd be putting up theological ideas as well. One of the guys is a Catholic, so I assumed it would be limited to a generic Christian t-shirt site.

Now I'm torn as to whether or not to continue to help them out... [/quote]
Do they claim to be Catholic or generic christian?

[Theoketos]

Dust, almost everything they said is very much from the Luthern Tradition, so some of the stuff that they posit is good, but needs to be purified.

If you design t~shirts for them, as long as you stipulate that they may not change the T~shirt in any way, I think that it would be ok. Mostly becuase you would be a means for a right understanding of God, which can lead to right praise of God (orthodoxy). Most would call this purification. Just a thought.

Ave Maria,

James III

[dUSt]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 12 2004, 09:26 AM'] Dust, almost everything they said is very much from the Luthern Tradition, so some of the stuff that they posit is good, but needs to be purified.

If you design t~shirts for them, as long as you stipulate that they may not change the T~shirt in any way, I think that it would be ok. Mostly becuase you would be a means for a right understanding of God, which can lead to right praise of God (orthodoxy). Most would call this purification. Just a thought.

Ave Maria,

James III [/quote]
I'm not designing t-shirts. I helped them set up their website and am currently hosting it on my server. They donate $10/month to phatmass in exchange.

[Theoketos]

mmm, I will think about this further, but I will leave you with Augustine thought on Imperial force to bring the Donatist back to the Gospel...

[i]Compelle eos intrare[/i]

[quote]It is indeed better (as no one ever could deny) that men should be led to worship God by teaching, than that they should be driven to it by fear of punishment or pain; but it does not follow that because the former course produces the better men, therefore those who do not yield to it should be neglected. For many have found advantage (as we have proved, and are daily proving by actual experiment), in being first compelled by fear or pain, so that they might afterwards be influenced by teaching, or might follow out in act what they had already learned in word.[/quote]

Compell them to enter...

But honestly I do not think this is an easy answer...

And Augustine is falliable.


Ave Maria,

James III