Guest JeffCR07 Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 [quote]I think he'd just run in horror of whats happened.[/quote] It is interesting for me to consider the difference between Martin Luther and St. Francis of Assisi. Both lived in times of abuse and corruption. In fact, many scholars of Church history would argue that the Church of Francis' time was even more full of abuses than that of Luthers. The reason I bring this up is because it seems to me that the fundamental difference between the two is that St. Francis refused to run from the Church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 [quote name='thessalonian' date='Oct 29 2004, 08:14 AM'] As for your point about the Gospel they preach, I will grant you a half a point against the preachers themselves. Many today preach a watered down Gospel. Sin is rarely mentioned in many of the parishes. Some even embrace homosexuality. We are told in the scriptures that there will be false teachers among us and that men will be decieved by them. Peter's letters I believe as well as the book of Acts. It is difficult enough for men to come to a true knowledge of Christ when the Gospel is preached well for we are told that even then some of the seed will fall on rocky ground and not even begin to grow while some will produce shallow Christians who sprout up and die. Then the false teachers will take some, being those seeds which sprouted but were chocked out by the weeds. So even if the Gospel is preached well, which it is in many parishes and by many priests in the Catholic Church these things will happen. So I will grant you a point for saying the Gospel must be preached with fidelity to the truth, saying the hard things, but I cannot grant you a point for saying that because people are led astray by the false teachers that this is some sort of reflection or apologetic arguement against the Catholic Church. Biblically it just doesn't hold. There were plenty of problems in the early Church with the very converts that Paul and the rest of the Apostles preached to. Read 1 Cor 5,6 and Galatians, and Revelations 2 & 3. It seems likely that the people spoken of here were holding on to false ideologies and sinful behavior of their past as well. Now was there something wrong with the Gospel that the Apostles preached because of the sinful behavior and the scandal. No. It was just the seeds falling on various types of soil and withering in the heat of daily life and temptation and the fallen nature of man. For those false teachers or the ones that water down the faith and avoid saying the hard things, Jerimiah 3 and 33 tell us that those teachers will recieve their due. Ezekiel 3:17-19 "Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. "Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. Blessings [/quote] I still don't agree. But this takes us to the matter of soteriology - whose gospel is correct? I would hold that the reason why there are so many who do not believe is that Rome actually deems the true gospel to be heresy and preaches a 'gospel' which is really not the Gospel at all, for it is devoid of the sovereign, foreknowing, predestining, calling by grace alone, justifying by the imputation of Christ's righteousness by faith alone, and glorifying, so that the saints may reflect the glory of God alone, mercy of God. Very truly, I agree with you that Rome as a whole waters down the Gospel and preaches falsehoods, which is why Mexico and other such places are dens of satanic idolatry. It is not just some preachers - it is [i]all[/i] preachers who preach the Church of Rome's doctrine of salvation by works with any consistency. The only way a Roman Catholic may be saved is if they hold the doctrines of the Roman Church inconsistently. If they hold them consistently, they believe in salvation by works - another gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 [quote name='Justified Saint' date='Nov 1 2004, 05:13 PM'] Those are your words, not ours - we have called it Protestantism. Given the fractious nature of Protestantism, I guess there would be no difficulty in classifying it as other religions and cults. It turns out that ICTHUS has more or less relented on this point. He has been forced to defend classical, reformed, conservative Protestantism, whatever that is, against the thousands of other kinds of Protestantism. Talk about mixing truth, eh? [/quote] Saint, you made the charge that Luther anathematized reason. I clarified the one statement you were no doubt referring to about 'beaver dam whore reason'. That was the statement I was asking you to respond to. Ought not reason - even the reason of the mind of a regenerate man- to be held captive by the Word of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 [quote]the church he helped reform? is this why Luther spent the rest of his life in anguish?[/quote] Anguish from his destructiveness and his rebellion against the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 [quote]Ought not reason - even the reason of the mind of a regenerate man- to be held captive by the Word of God?[/quote] You would have to tell me what you mean by "held captive by the Word of God", but I suspect you are uttering absurdities. You said before that people are vain and foolish when they try to reason the non-existence of God, but what is the case when they reason His existence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 [quote]The only way a Roman Catholic may be saved is if they hold the doctrines of the Roman Church inconsistently. If they hold them consistently, they believe in salvation by works - another gospel. [/quote] This is a continued mischaracterization that you persist in despite our repeated corrections of your errors. I suspect their is no harm done since nobody would be fooled by your strawmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 whats funny to me is that when you can't seem able to cope with something that is posted, the VERY easy out is to run around like a loon yelling, [font="Impact"][color=green]"STRAWMAN STRAWMAN!!!! WOOOOOOWOOOOOOOOWOOOOOOOWOOWOOOOOOO!!!![/color][/font] and thus, the point is dimissed, simply because you say we know nothing. and thus, it stands, the Catholic Church's word versus God's word. and thus, I stand with God. In Christ, the dumb one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Well, I stand corrected. [b]Most[/b] everyone would not be fooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Well... truthfully the statement was not a straw man. It was a falsity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 LOL as soon as I read the title of this post I knew that it was going to be started by a schismatic.....LOL It is sooooo predictable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 5, 2004 Author Share Posted November 5, 2004 (edited) [quote name='yiannii' date='Nov 4 2004, 10:24 PM'] LOL as soon as I read the title of this post I knew that it was going to be started by a schismatic.....LOL It is sooooo predictable! [/quote] Could you people be [i]any more antagonistic?[/i] Truly, my beliefs have been ridiculed here by many, and it's getting a little old. While perhaps not the most Christ-like thing to do, my previous attacks and antagonistic comments are [i]no worse than the kind of garbage that we see here,[/i] and I suspect this person will not even be warned, nor have his post edited by the moderators. Edited November 5, 2004 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 5 2004, 02:30 PM'] Could you people be [i]any more antagonistic?[/i] Truly, my beliefs have been ridiculed here by many, and it's getting a little old. While perhaps not the most Christ-like thing to do, my previous attacks and antagonistic comments are [i]no worse than the kind of garbage that we see here[/i] [/quote] You are right and I am very sorry. As soon as I posted it I though to myself "that was a bit harsh". Then again, the issues brought up by schismatics are sort of the same over and over again... the pope has done this, the pope did that etc etc etc. I just wonder what is your point? What are you trying to achieve by posting on this board? I honestly think it is all waste of time, and just a bunch of people trying to outsmart each other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 What is "Classical Protestanism"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I believe that this thread has strayed enough from the original post and has run it's course. It's time to put it to sleep. Say goodnight. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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