mulls Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Nov 1 2004, 03:39 PM'] Icthus, it appears as if people keep pointing the finger at OTHER religions and cults, instead of addressing your question directly... "Well they (fill in the blank with the cult you wish) did it/ do it too/first!!!" when, if you look at the nation of Mexico, which was/IS FULL of idolatry, the way that the Catholic Church got a foothold when the Spanish ORIGINALLY came over was to identify thir pagan gods with the saints of the Catholic Church... "Oh!! the mother god?? yeah! thats Mary!" [/quote] yoooooooo!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 WORD UP BROTHER!!!! I'm BACK LIKE HACKSAW JIM DUGAN! HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! i love you all...really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 U.S.A!!!!!!! U.S.A!!!!!!! U.S.A!!!!!!! non old school wwf fans need not apply now back to the regularly scheduled topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 (edited) [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Nov 1 2004, 02:39 PM'] Icthus, it appears as if people keep pointing the finger at OTHER religions and cults, instead of addressing your question directly... "Well they (fill in the blank with the cult you wish) did it/ do it too/first!!!" when, if you look at the nation of Mexico, which was/IS FULL of idolatry, the way that the Catholic Church got a foothold when the Spanish ORIGINALLY came over was to identify thir pagan gods with the saints of the Catholic Church... "Oh!! the mother god?? yeah! thats Mary!" [/quote] I think if you will look back at my posts, this I did not do. Further your strawman about Mother God is rather boorish. Perhaps you have something intelligent to add. Thanks for stopping by. blessings Edited November 1, 2004 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 (edited) Hey if you non-catholics are so brave after troding upon the mother of our Lord, head over to this thread and give me your opinion. It would be greatly appreciated. [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=22748"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=22748[/url] Blessings Edited November 1, 2004 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Thess, I apologize for causing any distractions - I did not mean to divert the discussion into petty attacks. I think you made some excellent points in your previous post on the Gospel and false teachers. However, there can be no doubt in my mind that ICTHUS's entire line of reasoning on this matter is utterly ridiculous. Your post exposes his faulty logic and I wouldn't be suprised if he avoided responding to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 [quote]Icthus, it appears as if people keep pointing the finger at OTHER religions and cults[/quote] Those are your words, not ours - we have called it Protestantism. Given the fractious nature of Protestantism, I guess there would be no difficulty in classifying it as other religions and cults. It turns out that ICTHUS has more or less relented on this point. He has been forced to defend classical, reformed, conservative Protestantism, whatever that is, against the thousands of other kinds of Protestantism. Talk about mixing truth, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D0RK4JP2 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Gday, One of the reasons i don't like debating with non-Catholics is they have this tendancy to ignore the truth which, even after buring their head in the drinking trough to try to get them to drink, they'll drown before taking a sip....if you catch my drift. JMJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 (edited) [quote name='D0RK4JP2' date='Nov 1 2004, 07:29 PM'] Gday, One of the reasons i don't like debating with non-Catholics is they have this tendancy to ignore the truth which, even after buring their head in the drinking trough to try to get them to drink, they'll drown before taking a sip....if you catch my drift. JMJ. [/quote] One reason Karl Keating (founder and president of Catholic Answers) no longer holds debates. He gives lectures, which he believes are more effective than debates. In a way, I agree with him. He mentioned this in his last E-letter. Edited November 1, 2004 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS_Dad Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 [quote name='Balthazor' date='Oct 27 2004, 01:29 AM']Besides by even saying that it is a pagan religion you are discrediting your own Church since if you say Catholicism is pagan...then that would mean any and all churches that sprung forth from it during the reformation would also be pagan and have pagan roots. Especially and including classical reformed Protestantism oh my indeed. [/quote] I think you underestimate the critique and the issues involved here.... The critique is that Christianity gradually accreted pagan elements from Roman and Greek culture, including philosophical lines of inquiry, over the first few centuries and drifted from its biblical and Jewish roots. Most "classical" Protestants don't see themselves as "churches that sprung forth from it [Catholicism]" but instead more of a return of Christianity itself to its roots..... In so doing they have lost so many important ecclesiastical and eschatological elements of Christianity which are integral to Catholicism... The real question is Christ and building the Kingdom of God... When we look at believing Protestants we are seeing our real brothers and sisters... Their tremendous love for Christ and desire to share his transforming grace with others throughout the world is deeply honoring to God. We should hope that we may all become one as Christ prayed.... Trust me... as a new Catholic with deep evangelical roots, I find most Catholic critiques of Evangelicalism to be shallow and non-persuasive... Why I am Catholic is obedience for Christ, love for Christ, and a desire do my little part to "incarnate" his prayer that "they may all be one." Clearly eucharistic, liturgical, and eschatological understandings flesh out this decision... Anyways, if you are a Catholic, and deeply love Christ... I would urge you to pray and reflect on what could be learned from Evangelicalism... Our brothers are not cartoon characters for anti-Protestant polemics... Let us become like Christ, who took the nature of servant and was willing to humble himself to become a baby... Only as we become like Christ is their any hope for healing within Christendom.... Secularists and radical Islamists want to destroy us all... Let's all draw closer to Christ and not throw stones at each other.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS_Dad Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 [quote name='thessalonian' date='Oct 27 2004, 02:22 PM']Catholicism converted the world. Protestantism parasitically pulled some Christians from the fold. [/quote] Realize that hundreds of years have passed since the English Reformation and God has tremendously used missionaries from America [whose theological roots reach back to England even before Luther and ideas floating in the 1500's and 1600's] to reach much of the world for Christ and is continuing to do so through Evangelical Churches.... My previous church had a missions budget of $400 K per year and sponsored scores of missionaies (at least partial support) throughout the world. I was actually moving up in the missions organization within the past year, but gave that up for Catholicism. My archdiocese is having an evangelization initiative and the archdiocese is discovering that few parishioners are interested because "faith is too private"... I have a hunger for missions that are more than social service projects and am finding it difficult to find an outlet... It appears to be a nearly foreign concept culturally.... Anyways, if we hope to make "Ut Unum Sint" a reality, we need to be cognizant of the strengths as well as the weaknesses of our separated brethren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack']when, if you look at the nation of Mexico, which was/IS FULL of idolatry, the way that the Catholic Church got a foothold when the Spanish ORIGINALLY came over was to identify thir pagan gods with the saints of the Catholic Church...[/quote] Again, this shows not only an ignorance of Catholicism, but an ignorance of the indigenous religions of Mexico. Anyone who knew anything about the previous religion of Mexico would know that the Mexicans worshipped a god that required [b]human sacrifice[/b]. If this alleged "idolatry" to Our Lady has replaced the previous idol worship, then why is there no human sacrifice? Why did human sacrifice cease with the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe to St. Juan Diego? And furthermore, why do Protestants think that it's not only okay to not honor Our Lady, but also to blatantly disrespect her? Do you have no respect for the Mother of your Lord? This is not all about us . . . you guys have your problems, and it's time for you to own up to them. Why do you hold Mary in utter contempt, and do you think that's what Jesus or the Apostles would have done or would have wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D0RK4JP2 Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 (edited) Gday, I've figured out, and i don't know if it is 100% true or not, that most Catholic vs Protestant debates always wind down to 1 core question to be debated - by who's authority? The protestant revult really is a scruple in the minds of all non-Catholic Christians because it key-stone to their arguing if they're aware of it or not. Orthodoxy denied the Pope Protesantism denied the Pope and the Church Freemasonry denied the Pope, the Church and Jesus Communism denied the Pope, the Church, Jesus and God (understanding the personage of course of the last two - Freemasons deny the divinity of Christ but still maintain a supreme creator) ...I pray one day all non-Catholics will look on their seperation from the Church in this light. JMJ. *edited because i spelt Catholic wrong * Edited November 2, 2004 by D0RK4JP2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 [quote name='Justified Saint' date='Nov 1 2004, 04:13 PM'] Those are your words, not ours - we have called it Protestantism. Given the fractious nature of Protestantism, I guess there would be no difficulty in classifying it as other religions and cults. It turns out that ICTHUS has more or less relented on this point. He has been forced to defend classical, reformed, conservative Protestantism, whatever that is, against the thousands of other kinds of Protestantism. Talk about mixing truth, eh? [/quote] you point at the fractious nature of Protestantism, yet I have seen more than one group of catholics get into it with another group here...Catholocism is very fractured within itself. Anyone who disagrees, or chooses NOT to see it, is living a very deluded life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Lumberjack you are only decieving yourself. Luther lamented at the end of his life: “There are now as many theologies as there are heads”. Now do you suppose he would have said this at the beginning of his days as a priest? No, it was in lament for the way things had changed since the start of the reformation. Yes there are Catholics who disagree with the teachings of the Church. But the teachings are well defined and those who disagree with them are just separating themselves from the truth. Two Protestants can disagree on whether baptism is neccessary for salvation and be completely withing the "pale of orthodoxy" as Hank Hanagraph calls it. Now if it is in fact neccessary for salvation then how can one be orthodox for teaching that it is not neccessary? Now your next step of course will be to try and prove it is neccessary. Well the other side that says this tends to say that it is then salvation by works (forgetting that it is the action of the Holy Spirit that actually does the cleansing of the soul of which the water is only a symbol). So then how can the Lutheran, believing it's neccessity be any better than the Galatian who required circumcision. By the way I sure hope you read my post above and check in on the Acts 15 thread as I challenged you to do. I would love to see you over there. Blessings Thess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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