Roman Catholicism conducive to mixture...

[Balthazor]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 10 2004, 11:07 AM']
Rome says that it is okay to bow down to statues, even if she says that it's not 'worship'. Cultural religions worship idols, so they find that commonality between themselves and Roman Catholicism. Thus, they find it easy to blend.[/quote]
Harsh man....

We acknowledge saints, particularily Godly people, with statues, but no we do not bow down and worship them.

Think about this.

I see flowers in Luthern graveyards, I see headstones of Luthern dead. I see people visiting memorials. I see statues of Protestant reformers. And I see people leaving flowers or cards at these places....trust me they are not all Catholic....I wish they were all Catholic.
I see people praying at or near these places.

Now how is this any different than doing the same at or near the statue of a Saint?

People honor dead friends, and family, they may even pray and leave flowers at a memorial, and yet the connection between idolitry is not made there... .

If a Catholic does the same exact thing at a statue of a saint as a Luthern does at a statue at a war memorial....the Catholic must be one step away from idolitry and yet the Luthern is merely paying his respects????? hmmm.......

As a Catholic I tend to think of saints like friends who have passed on, likewise I honor them in the same way. It never has even ever crossed my mind to worship a statue or anyone or anything that is not God.

Saints are not there as false gods detracting from the worship of God.....on the contrary. Saints are examples of people who have been devoted and true to God through adversity and hardships. I gotta say that when life gets me down and I think that this Christianity thing is just too hard, and that no one could possibly come close to living up to these high standards, I am reminded that there were people out there that did it....maybe not absolutly perfectly, but they held out.

I know this is a little off topic..... but I just waned let you take a peek at how this little black duck sees the world.

Oh and one more thing....if you say that "with Roman Catholicism, there have arisen religions such as Voodoo and Santeria, mixtures of pagan devil worship and Roman Catholicism (which is itself part Biblical Christianity and part pagan), "

This really is an unfair statement. There is nothing at all pagan in Catholic teaching, perhaps there are some elements of pagan culture in places....like Christmas trees. But it is not in any way a pagan religion.

Besides by even saying that it is a pagan religion you are discrediting your own Church since if you say Catholicism is pagan...then that would mean any and all churches that sprung forth from it during the reformation would also be pagan and have pagan roots. Especially and including classical reformed Protestantism oh my indeed.

May God bless you all,

Balthazor

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 10 2004, 01:07 PM'] How do you account for the fact that, with Roman Catholicism, there have arisen religions such as Voodoo and Santeria, mixtures of pagan devil worship and Roman Catholicism (which is itself part Biblical Christianity and part pagan), whereas no one has mixed classical, Reformed Protestantism with any pagan religions.

I have a theory.

Rome says that it is okay to bow down to statues, even if she says that it's not 'worship'. Cultural religions worship idols, so they find that commonality between themselves and Roman Catholicism. Thus, they find it easy to blend. [/quote]
What I don't understand is why you don't study something before you say it.

Voodoo did not come from Catholicism, and Santeria is voodoo hidden in the saints of the Catholic Church so that people wouldn't think that they were practicing voodoo.

The information is out there, just do a few searches at reputable places like Britannica.com, HistoryChannel.com, etc... Not the dime a dozen ian paisley style sites that it appears that you get your info from.


To say voodoo and santeria came from Catholicism is to show that one had did not understand any of them.


-ironmonk

[Balthazor]

Ironmonk is right....
Santeria in particular uses a Catholic front so it doesn't look like paganism.
To them the statues of the saints aren't the holy people who lived long ago, but rather a front for a pagan animist god. They don't even acknowledge who these saints really were......it is like identity theft for saints!!!

Try and see santeria as it truly is not as a mixture of Catholicism and paganism but a true a wolf in sheep's clothing.

dziekuje,

Balthazor

[thessalonian]

We Catholics need to stop running from the paganism thing. We need to understand it. God has implanted his laws on the hearts of all men. One of those laws is the one about worshipping God. Now they cannot come to who God is without revelation but they can have some correct ideas about him. For instance in Athens Paul uses the Tomb of the Unknown God to help the pagans understand whom the real God is. Some of Pauls comments are out of pagan literature like the one in Acts 17 about "strainging against the goads". The fact is that we are to acknowledge was is good in all religion and reject what is false.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.


With that in mind, certain things in pagan religions that are not contrary to our faith can be incorporated in to the faith to assimilate the culture to the faith. This is what happened with regard to Christmass being dated on the Winter Solstice which was a pagan holiday.

We had a missionary from New Guinea come to our parish a couple of years back. He said something rather funny. New Guinea was a missionary land as late as 1949. Now the people of New Guinea were canabals. Imagine getting the call from your bishop, "Fr. John, I've got a missionary assignment for you". The funny thing is that the people of New Guinea understood the Mass very well. The easily grasped the concept of the Eucharist. Would one say that the paganism influenced Catholicism here? No. But there were things in there paganism that had a ring of truth in them that was used to help them understand Catholicism. It's not a chicken or egg deal. St. Francis Xavier was excellent at this. He was criticized for it some but still was one of the greatest missionaries of all time, converting nearly 1 million people in various lands to Catholicism.

Blessings

[thessalonian]

I should point out as well that the wise men from the east did not get their information from the Bible. Not sure how they got there info but evidently they were open to something that the Jews themselves missed when they had the scripture. Nature speaks of the glory of God. Therefore we should expect to find truth mixed with error in pagan religions. It is the truths that missionaries such as St. Francis Xavier used to convert the world. The whole world was pagan and in the end after centuries of assimilation with the Catholic faith it became Catholic Christian. Catholicism converted the world. Protestantism parasitically pulled some Christians from the fold.

Thessalonian

[God Conquers]

thess, you've got it bang on.

Of course Catholism sometimes seems to demonstrate similarities with ancient practices, because the desire for the Gospel (the full gospel) has been written on every man's heart from the beginning of time, and they have been striving to express their worship, though imperfectly, in ways which resemble the perfect, Catholic way.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Oct 27 2004, 07:24 AM'] What I don't understand is why you don't study something before you say it.

Voodoo did not come from Catholicism, and Santeria is voodoo hidden in the saints of the Catholic Church so that people wouldn't think that they were practicing voodoo.

The information is out there, just do a few searches at reputable places like Britannica.com, HistoryChannel.com, etc... Not the dime a dozen ian paisley style sites that it appears that you get your info from.


To say voodoo and santeria came from Catholicism is to show that one had did not understand any of them.


-ironmonk [/quote]
You're wrong about voodoo...

[url="https://www.sitesalive.com/admin/glossary/sectV.html"]https://www.sitesalive.com/admin/glossary/sectV.html[/url] said...

Voodoo = A West Indian religion made up of a combination of African religions and Catholicism; its ceremonies center on rituals developed to please the Iwa (spirits)

Also, if Santeria developed out of statues, doesn't that seem to indicate that religious statues of any kind are conducive to idolatry? Indeed, there is a good reason why the second commandment forbids them.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Oct 27 2004, 02:22 PM'] I should point out as well that the wise men from the east did not get their information from the Bible. Not sure how they got there info but evidently they were open to something that the Jews themselves missed when they had the scripture. Nature speaks of the glory of God. Therefore we should expect to find truth mixed with error in pagan religions. It is the truths that missionaries such as St. Francis Xavier used to convert the world. The whole world was pagan and in the end after centuries of assimilation with the Catholic faith it became Catholic Christian. Catholicism converted the world. Protestantism parasitically pulled some Christians from the fold.

Thessalonian [/quote]
My issue is that paganism [i]became mixed with Catholicism[/i] and led to damnable forms of religion, such as Santeria and Voodoo.

[Guest Aluigi]

Santeria developed because people were loyal to their ancient religion and didn't want to convert, but there was a lot of pressure from Spanish colonists (i'm pretty sure it was the spanish this time)... and so Satan whipped up a little scheme to help the people practice their native religion and make the colonists think they had converted them. they took their ancient beliefs and renamed em all to disguise em as Catholic.

[God Conquers]

Well, ICTHUS, you can say the same thing about mainline protestantism.

If poorly practiced, and for faithful who care nothing for orthodoxy or the Gospel, then there are plenty of opportunities to be mixed up in paganism.

Catholicism is to Santeria as Protestantism is to Christian New Age (practiced in many United and Anglican churches, who use Enneigrams, labyrinths (incorrectly), astrology, etc.)

[thessalonian]

"My issue is that paganism became mixed with Catholicism and led to damnable forms of religion, such as Santeria and Voodoo. "

Yes, these are damnable forms of religion. However how does that reflect poorly on Catholicism? I don't see a new section on VooDoo in the Catechism. No Santeria Tradition started up. If the whole church embraced it then you would have a point. I said above that we must hold on to the good and reject the bad. If some do not reject the bad that is not a reflection on my Catholic faith in America. It may be a lack of education and understanding on their part. It may be outright rebellion. But it will not change my faith tommorrow if a Catholic group in Zimbawee decides that animals are to be prayed to. I have the Catechism and the Pope to keep me grounded.

Blessings

[Justified Saint]

If you are trying to make an appeal to reason I fear it won't work with ICTHUS. Luther and his ilk anathematized reason. Thus ICTHUS's absurd statements about Catholicism and voodoo when Protestantism has been mixed with just about every damnable thing.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Oct 27 2004, 04:45 PM'] "My issue is that paganism became mixed with Catholicism and led to damnable forms of religion, such as Santeria and Voodoo. "

Yes, these are damnable forms of religion.  However how does that reflect poorly on Catholicism?  I don't see a new section on VooDoo in the Catechism.  No Santeria Tradition started up.  If the whole church embraced it then you would have a point.  I said above that we must hold on to the good and reject the bad.  If some do not reject the bad that is not a reflection on my Catholic faith in America.  It may be a lack of education and understanding on their part.  It may be outright rebellion.  But it will not change my faith tommorrow if a Catholic group in Zimbawee decides that animals are to be prayed to.  I have the Catechism and the Pope to keep me grounded. 

Blessings

[/quote]
I understand this - what I'm trying to do, rather, is look at the root cause of peoples defection to these damnable forms of religion.

We all know that the true Gospel, when preached effectively, demands [i]metanoia[/i] - repentance from sin and living a new way of life in the light of Christ's Truth. I would suggest that the problems with immorality and general false religion within some parts of the Church of Rome is indicitave of a much deeper problem with the Gospel they preach.

[quote name='Justified Saint']If you are trying to make an appeal to reason I fear it won't work with ICTHUS. Luther and his ilk anathematized reason. Thus ICTHUS's absurd statements about Catholicism and voodoo when Protestantism has been mixed with just about every damnable thing. [/quote] Here we see why I sometimes lose my cool on these boards. I fail to see how the above could be construed any other manner than as an ad-hominem attack against me. Has this person been warned? I know I would have been had I said something similar to another Roman Catholic on this board.

Incidentally, you are (partially) incorrect that Luther anathematized reason altogether. The Reformers believed that reason, when it was not captivated by the Word of God, was ultimately vain and foolish (cf. Romans 1). Thus, the reason which to which Luther was referring when he referred to that "beaver dam whore reason" was reason which the unregenerate man uses to justify himself or prove his way out of believing in God.

Edited October 28, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Balthazor]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 28 2004, 04:32 PM'] I understand this - what I'm trying to do, rather, is look at the root cause of peoples defection to these damnable forms of religion.


[/quote]
Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place for your answer. Seeing as this is a Catholic forum, you will get mostly answers from people who are faithful to the Catholic Church. You are looking to people who have not defected to a dmnable form of religion but rather people who have stayed fiercly faithful to Christ's Church.

Instead perhaps you should ask someone who is practicing voodoo or santeria. They could probably give you a much better answer than people who are not involved in santeria or voodoo than these people who are faithful to the Catholic Christian Faith.

I Hope I am not making you feel unwelcome....that is not my intent. I simply think if you are looking for an answer here you are not going to find it.

Good luck in your search for truth and God Bless,

Balthazor

[Good Friday]

[quote name='ICTHUS']I understand this - what I'm trying to do, rather, is look at the root cause of peoples defection to these damnable forms of religion.[/quote]
What you seem to not be understanding is that no defection is involved. It's not as if normal, everyday Catholics are defecting to Vodoun and Santeria on a daily basis. Vodoun and Santeria existed prior to Catholicism, among the native tribes of Africa -- the Yoruba tribe, for instance. These are native religions that have existed for a very long time. But when these Africans were brought to the Americas, to Haiti and other Central American nations, they were forced to convert to Catholicism, as was the practice then. But they didn't want to convert to Catholicism, so they hid their [i]orishas[/i] in the saints, so that Catholics would think they were just praying for the intercession of the saints when, in actuality, they were worshipping their orishas.

So it's not that Vodoun and Santeria developed out of Catholicism, it's that they manipulated parts of the Catholic faith to hide their earlier, native religion. There was no defection from Catholicism to Santeria; these people were never Catholic in the first place.

[quote name='ICTHUS']We all know that the true Gospel, when preached effectively, demands metanoia - repentance from sin and living a new way of life in the light of Christ's Truth. I would suggest that the problems with immorality and general false religion within some parts of the Church of Rome is indicitave of a much deeper problem with the Gospel they preach.[/quote]
That's ridiculous, and you know it. There are problems with immorality in any church, because there are imperfect human beings in any church. Find me a church that has no immorality.

- - -

While we're on the topic, let's talk about some of the immorality that sprung from Protestantism.

Perhaps you're familiar with the Unitarian Universalist Association. They're the most progressive church probably in the world, and they used to be Christian -- although now they welcome pagans, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, etc. into their midst for worship. But like I said, they used to be two separate Christian sects: Unitarianism and Universalism. Both were Protestant. Unitarianism held that God was only one person, the Father, and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not God. Universalism held that there was no hell. They arrived at these errant beliefs by private interpretation of the Bible, just as all Protestants arrive at their beliefs.

Perhaps you're familiar with the Episcopal Church. They're one of the most progressive churches in the world, but they are still (at least, nominally) Christian. They now ordain female bishops, as well as ordaining actively gay men (not only that, but a homosexual man who left his wife and children). And the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of the entire Anglican Communion, holds membership in a Druid (pagan) organization. Not only this, but the Anglican Communion has several sects, I'm sure you've heard of them: High Church, Anglo-Catholic, Broad Church, etc. The Broad Church sect includes unabashed liberals like John Shelby Spong, who don't believe in the divinity of Jesus and, in some cases, don't even believe in a theistic God.

Perhaps you're familiar with the United Church of Christ. Another one of the most progressive churches in the world, nominally Christian. Much of the same stuff as the Episcopal Church does. The United Church of Christ descends directly from Calvinism, Congregationalism and reform theology.

All of these churches, which I'm sure you would agree are errant, come from "traditional" Protestantism, "conservative" Protestantism. You don't get much more conservative than Calvinism, but that's what the United Church of Christ descends from. And I could go on, and on, and on about this. But I think I'll stop with just those three examples.

Beam . . . eye . . .