Brother Adam Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Yet you fail to realize the whole premise of the argument. Indeed Christians were not the first "religion" to baptize its members. Who said I'm talking about John the Baptist? I didn't say I was. I didn't even say Jewish was pagan. Certianly not. It has been well documented that other religions long before the Christian religion baptized as an entrance into the membership of the pagan religion. And when did I say Voodoo is acceptable? Think before you act. Thus my argument does indeed hold water. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 dUSt's point is crucial, the voodoo stuff occured because people were not really taught the faith so you can't say it is a natural outgrowth of the faith. Also I would almost bet that the Old Testament contains more examples of Israel falling into idolatry and abominations than of Israel being faithful to their own religion. This does not men that OT Judaism was bunk or naturally tended toward idolatry, quite the opposite really. And even in the New Testament Church you have instances of Christians falling into idolatry and things. And in Acts you have things like the people who heard Paul preach and then decided to worship him as a God. This is more what the voodoo mixed type stuff is about. People who were exposed to Christianity but did not really get it or accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 11 2004, 09:29 PM'] Yet you fail to realize the whole premise of the argument. Indeed Christians were not the first "religion" to baptize its members. Who said I'm talking about John the Baptist? I didn't say I was. I didn't even say Jewish was pagan. Certianly not. It has been well documented that other religions long before the Christian religion baptized as an entrance into the membership of the pagan religion. And when did I say Voodoo is acceptable? Think before you act. Thus my argument does indeed hold water. Thanks. [/quote] Sorry for being unclear. I was saying that ICTHUS's whole argument about Catholicism and voodoo was nonsense, not Bro. Adam's argument. However, on another point, Christian Baptism and the Baptism of John the Baptist have nothing to do with any pagan "baptisms," whatever external resemblence there might be between baptism and pagan initiation rites. My point is that the Church did not "get" or "adopt" baptism from pagan customs. Christian Baptism does not have its origin in pagan ceremonies. They have completely different origins. Edited October 12, 2004 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DojoGrant Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 You're crazy if you don't think Protestants have not slipped (by the entire community) into heresy and apostacy. Many ethnic cultures that convert tend to incorporate ethnic symbols and practices when they are converted, be it Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Icthus, you make the greatest threads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Icthus, you make the greatest threads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Knight, La Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 socrates, perhaps i am wrong on this, i am certainly wrong enough about other things, but i do not know of documents saying where John got the idea to baptize. You claim they're of a different origin, I ask you to prove this. my theory, admittedly unresearched as i have not had the reason combined with opportunity to do so, is that baptism pagan, or christian does have it's roots in God, now read carefully so I am not misunderstood, in as much as God let people know they needed cleansing from their sins, so they came up with at least a symbolic way to do it. Once Christ came into the picture the Christian baptism became efficacious. you make think of it much like God formed the jewish religion so that Christ could come and demonstrate the fullness of truth using what was already understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 The whole point though being, that people baptized before Christians did. Not that they have a false parallel as ICTHUS suggests they have a real one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 OOOO, I [i]love[/i] semantics!.... ICTHUS, I wonder, do you have a christmass tree, or do you give your family an easter basket full of easter eggs? If so, I would worry about your salvation, for clearly these things are pagan influences, and we all know how any pagan influences = eternal damnation right? .... .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 [quote name='Mary's Knight, La' date='Oct 12 2004, 08:19 PM'] socrates, perhaps i am wrong on this, i am certainly wrong enough about other things, but i do not know of documents saying where John got the idea to baptize. You claim they're of a different origin, I ask you to prove this. my theory, admittedly unresearched as i have not had the reason combined with opportunity to do so, is that baptism pagan, or christian does have it's roots in God, now read carefully so I am not misunderstood, in as much as God let people know they needed cleansing from their sins, so they came up with at least a symbolic way to do it. Once Christ came into the picture the Christian baptism became efficacious. you make think of it much like God formed the jewish religion so that Christ could come and demonstrate the fullness of truth using what was already understood. [/quote] While there are probably no documents proving where St. John the Baptist "got his idea from," I think it is safe to say, as Christians, that he got the idea from God. St. John was a pius Jew and a great Saint whose mission was to pave the way for the Messiah, so I think it extremely unlikely that he went to pagan sources to "get his idea to baptize." Basically, I think it's an erroneous and dangerous idea that the Holy Sacrament of Baptism came from "baptizing" pagan customs. There are people out there who claim that Catholicism or Christianity is nothing more than a newer form of old paganism - Christianity is really Apollo or sun-god worship, the Eucharist comes from rites of pagan mystery cults, Christian doctrine is neo-Platonism, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Oct 13 2004, 12:13 AM'] OOOO, I [i]love[/i] semantics!.... ICTHUS, I wonder, do you have a christmass tree, or do you give your family an easter basket full of easter eggs? If so, I would worry about your salvation, for clearly these things are pagan influences, and we all know how any pagan influences = eternal damnation right? .... .... [/quote] Don't forget the celebration of Halloween, St. Valentine's Day, April geniuses' Day, May Day... Oh...and the English language began with pagans...arguably once highly centered on religious purposes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Some may be surprised at how many fundamentalists DO NOT celebrate most holidays including Christmas for those reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I tend to agree with Socrates (LOL), but I would add that there are certainly aspects of ancient Judaism that were common with the beliefs and customs of other peoples. Nonetheless I would not be hastey in giving assent to the many claims floating around out there. For example years back I remember reading about how Christianity came about when the followers of Jesus of Nazareth (notably St. Paul) mixed Judaism with Pagan religion (particularly Mithraism and other mystery cults). The evidence for this was certain similarities between these religions and ancient Christianity, in particular the fact that these religions had "mysteries", aka "sacraments" which were rites of initiation and things that were similar to christianity, and some of these religions had priests, consecrated virgins, bread and wine offerings, baptism, etc.. Just instead of Christ they had Mithras or Dionysus or some other "god". At first I didn't know how to answer these assertions but as I looked into it further it turned out that some of these religions had roots which predated Christianity (in Persian religion and things), but the form of the religion (cult really) that was described is actually based upon post-Christian accounts of the cult practices and things. Anyway, after examining some of the evidence upon which these vile attacks are based, and reading what the Fathers of the Church wrote about these "religions", it became clear that in reality these were sects that were trying to mimic or conterfeit Christianity, not the other way around. I don't think this has ever really stopped. Even today there are many bizzare sects and cults which try to copy the Church but in a twisted way. Also when you examine the teachings of these religions (from the fragments and things that we have about them) their doctrines were hardly comparable to the Christian Faith. These were cheap, conterfeit pagan religions which it is absurd to claim are the roots of the Christian Faith. I could go on in much more detail and with many more reasons but I'm just trying to make one point; namely that it is unwise to assume that these kind of assertions are true, I have found that they usually are grave distortions of the truth. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Random bit of information... Did you know that the word pagan simply means a person from the country? Non-Christians in the Roman times would have never called themselves pagans. The Christians began using the word in reference to them in the 4th century. More on topic.... Where is it that Paul worshipped at the "altar to an unknown god"? Taking good things from pagan or non-Christian faiths, or even from secular, cultural practices isn't necessarily bad. It has been the practice of the Church from the beginning. Also, add the use of wedding rings to pagan practices we still follow today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 I think it lends credence to Catholic belief. People were striving for worship of God, but in an imperfect way. Along comes Jesus and the Church and BAM! Perfection. No more sun worshipping, but Son Worshipping (and adoration) No more sacrifices, but The Eternal Sacrifice It's not a coincidence that Chirstianity adopted and perfected these practices... to be Catholic is to be Universal and.... [i]Nothing human is hurt by the Gospel: every authentic value, in whatever culture it appears, is accepted and raised up by Christ. Knowing this, Christians cannot fail to feel in their hearts the pride and responsibility of their call to be witnesses to the light of the Gospel. [/i] JPII Address to WYD Pilgrims at the Vigil at Downsview Park in Toronto 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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