Roman Catholicism conducive to mixture...

[ICTHUS]

How do you account for the fact that, with Roman Catholicism, there have arisen religions such as Voodoo and Santeria, mixtures of pagan devil worship and Roman Catholicism (which is itself part Biblical Christianity and part pagan), whereas no one has mixed classical, Reformed Protestantism with any pagan religions.

I have a theory.

Rome says that it is okay to bow down to statues, even if she says that it's not 'worship'. Cultural religions worship idols, so they find that commonality between themselves and Roman Catholicism. Thus, they find it easy to blend.

[cmotherofpirl]

What do you call the branch davidians, mormons and jehovahs witnesses?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 10 2004, 11:17 AM'] What do you call the branch davidians, mormons and jehovahs witnesses? [/quote]
Not classical Protestantism. They never were Christian sects to begin with.

[Brother Adam]

Christianity itself has "pagan roots" that is, baptism itself is of pagan origin. Christians were not the first to baptize. Therefore Jesus must have been preaching for paganism. Catholics commune with saints on earth and in heaven. Don't try to turn it into one of your anti-intellectual propaganda debates. Your "theory" lacks any scholarship and screams "anti-Catholic rhetoric"

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 10 2004, 11:07 AM'] whereas no one has mixed classical, Reformed Protestantism with any pagan religions. [/quote]
Ever heard of secularism, modernism, and relativism?



I think you need to take the plank out of your own eye.

[Brother Adam]

Then there is oneness Pentacostals, seventhday adventists, salvation army....

[Brother Adam]

Then there is oneness Pentacostals, seventhday adventists, salvation army....

[Theoketos]

Not to nail extra nails into a coffin, but I would say:

1: Protestantism is from Roman Catholicism, just a lite version to the extreme.

2: Defining Classical Protestanism is difficult in and of it self.

3: Lest we forget Jack Chick and Fred Phelps oh and the KKK & the Masons and Anti~Masons...

4: Have you ever heard of John Calvin Seminary in NY? Yeah, they pour libations in the ground to honor mother Earth...

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Cure of Ars' date='Oct 10 2004, 12:49 PM'] Ever heard of secularism, modernism, and relativism?



I think you need to take the plank out of your own eye. [/quote]
These arose from liberalism, not conservative Protestantism.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]These arose from liberalism, not conservative Protestantism.[/quote]

Splitting hairs, are we?

However, it really has become a matter of the lesser of two evils. Despite all the destructiveness of liberal Protestantism, I for one am glad that Calvinism is officially dead and that nobody has tried to resurrect Calvin's Geneva, although the Nazis gave a good run at it.

[dUSt]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 10 2004, 11:07 AM'] How do you account for the fact that, with Roman Catholicism, there have arisen religions such as Voodoo and Santeria, mixtures of pagan devil worship... [/quote]
Not Catholicism. They never were Christian sects to begin with.

[Enda]

I was just about to point that out dUST

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 10 2004, 06:53 PM'] These arose from liberalism, not conservative Protestantism. [/quote]
Look for yourself.

[quote]
The following premises suggest presuppositional sympathies which exist between Protestant and Secular thought:

1. Authority

Protestantism:  'Human authorities' (i.e. Church hierarchy and Tradition) denied in favour of the Divine Authority of the Bible.  [Human Skepticism]

Secularism:  Divine or religious authority denied in favour of the human authority of science, reason, or one's own opinion.  [Religious Skepticism]

2. Subjectivism

Protestantism:  God is found in the Bible.  By reading it He will reveal Himself to you.  [Unmediated/Direct, Simplified, and semi-Subjective revelation]

Secularism:  Higher consciousness/God is found in oneself.  By 'looking' inside you will find God.  [Unmediated/Direct, Simplified, and completely Subjective revelation]

3. Radical Individualism

Protestantism:  Each individual is guided by the Holy Spirit in interpreting the (literal) meaning of the Bible.  [semi-Subjectivism]

Secularism:  Each individual is guided by his own values in interpreting what things --- like family, sex, religion, career --- (presently) mean to him.  [Subjectivism]

4. Psychological Assurance

Protestantism:  The atoning worth of Christ's death and resurrection gives assurance of one's salvation.  Past, present or future personal sins cannot eliminate what Jesus has done for me.  I am still saved so long as I keep faith in Him.  [Subjective Soteriological Assurance; Gnosticism]

Secularism:  One's personal motives in acting determine whether one is basically a good person or not.  Past, present or future mistakes cannot eliminate one's personal integrity so long as you acted with good intentions.  [Subjective Psychological Assurance; Gnosticism]

5. Aversion to Community and Ritual in Worship and Religion

Protestantism:  Worship that is pleasing to God is not found in some formal, repetitious human ritual but "in spirit and in truth."  Honest and true prayer is from the heart (i.e. subjective) and biblically based (i.e. anti-ritualistic).  [Subjectivism, Gnosticism]

Secularism:  Each person who prays to "God" does so in his own way.  Honest and true prayer expresses one's own experience and understanding of God.  Church rituals are seen as unnecessary, cramped and artificial.  [Subjectivism, Gnosticism]

6. Emotionalism

Protestantism:  Import is given to a positive emotional response in substantiating one's decisions in faith.  [Emotivism]

Secularism:  Import is given to a positive emotional response in substantiating one's personal decisions.  [Emotivism]

7. Personal Relationships

Protestantism:  The primacy of one's personal relationship with Jesus.  [Individualism]

Secularism:  The primacy of one's own needs (i.e. oneself) in all personal relationships.  [Individualism]

8. Moral and Psychological Determinism

Protestantism:  Man is totally depraved and so everything he does is tainted by sin.  The important thing is repenting and accepting what Jesus has done for you.  Christ then covers your sins with His atoning sacrifice.  Your sins are then forgiven and all penalty due to them is removed.  Temporal penance is seen as an inappropriate response.  Man cannot rectify his depravity but can respond to it with faith in Christ.  [Moral Determinism]

Secularism:  Man is impelled by sexual drives and egoistic impulses.  The important thing is to recognize and accept them as a natural.  One then needs to find healthy ways of expressing them.  Feelings of guilt are an inappropriate  moralistic response.  Man cannot rectify his unconscious, instinctual drives only learn to express/externalize them in appropriate ways.  [Psychological Determinism]

9. Radical Autonomy and Anti-Institutionalism

Protestantism:  Denial of any divinely established ecclesiastical structure with like authority.  Denial of any sacramental mediation of one's relationship with God.  Christ's Church is not a visible structure.  It is in the heart of all true believers who then gather together to manifest its presence and give mutual support.  Grace is not dependent on any sacrament.  Such belief puts human works before grace and makes God dependent on them.  God gives His grace directly to the believer.  'Sacraments' are merely visible, public symbols performed in obedience to Christ that make visible what He has already invisibly done in the person's own heart.  They are not a means of grace but only represent its presence.  To think otherwise would be to make grace dependent on human actions.  [Angelism:  An overly spiritualized understanding of human nature and divine mediation]

Secularism:  Denial of any social structures having natural rights over the individual.  Denial of any social institutions as necessary to mediate relationships.  The individual is an autonomous agent.  Social structures exist as human constructs to manifest social bonds and promote the common good.  They are a means of providing mutual support to individuals.  The exercise of one's freedom is not dependent on state approval.  Such a belief puts laws before freedom and makes freedom dependent on the law.  Marriage is a publicly and legally recognized social institution.  It is established by cultural convention and is performed in obedience to those conventions.  As such it symbolizes bonds of love but is not a means to them.  To think otherwise would be to make sexual love dependent on social conventions.  [Angelism:  An overly idealized understanding of human nature and society]

10. The Road to Hell is Paved With Good Intentions

Protestantism:  I am saved by faith not works.  In fact my salvation is determined by God's predestining me -- not by anything I might do myself.  [Religious dichotomy]

Secularism:  The true person is known by their intentions more than his actions.  In fact the moral nature of an action is determined more by the actor's intention than by what is done (eg. in abortion, euthanasia, pre-marital sex, lying).  [Anthropological Dichotomy]
Similar to an earlier premise but highlighting a different philosophical presupposition.

11. Historical Revisionism and Subjectivism

Protestantism:  One's Christian life is definitively guided by the Bible, the true meaning of which was rediscovered during the Reformation.  Attitudes toward Christian beliefs between New Testament times and the Reformation range from diffident, to indifferent, to suspicious, to contemptous.  Allegiance to much of what was believed in this earlier period is not necessary.  Biblical truths may be found then but were progressively corrupted by Romanized interpretations.  With the advent of the Reformation the true nature of biblical Christianity was rediscovered.  Reformed theology helps guide the individual in understanding what the Holy Spirit is teaching him through the Bible.  [Historical Subjectivism; Historico-religious Fiction; Anti-progressivism]

Secularism:  A person's life is definitively guided by his own values, within the context of one's culture.  Attitudes to the West's moral heritage range from diffident, to indifferent, to suspicious, to contemptous.  Allegiance to the values of the past is not necessary.  Many of one's beliefs or values may be found then but often in archaic form or biased by a religious interpretation.  With the advent of a more global perspective values have been shown to be culturally relative.  Contemporary cultural norms help guide the individual in choosing amongst competing values what ones are true to himself.  [Historical Subjectivism; Historico-cultural Fiction; Progressivism]

12. Aversion to History, Heritage, and Tradition

Protestantism:  For all practical purposes the above point can also be commonly reduced to this:  The believer is guided by the Bible applied to today.  The origin of his particular denomination or church and the historical and theological background of their interpretation is of little interest.  It just 'came from the Bible.'  The historical or cultural context of scriptural passages is of only peripheral importance (it is usually only a concern when a passage is difficult to reconcile with one's own 'biblical' views).  That one has reworked or developed an idea or moral view from the Bible goes largely unacknowledged.  It is as if God were speaking directly to me and my times.  [A-historicism]

Secularism:  For all practical purposes (and more so than in Protestantism) the present generation guides itself as if the world began with them.  The historical and philosophical background of their culture or views is of little interest.  It is just 'the way things are,' or 'what I believe.'  It is as if the past has no bearing on the present or anything necessarily of value to teach (it is all 'Dark Ages' or 'ancient history').  It is simply myself and my life and times.  [A-historicism]

13. Irrationalism and Anti-Intellectualism

Protestantism:  Too much of Catholic theology is empty and vain human philosophy.  God revealed Himself for salvation, not speculation.  God is beyond human reason.  He is known by faith not by syllogism.  [anti-intellectualism]

Secularism:  Too much of Christian belief is focused on narrow doctrines and right belief.  Higher consciousness/God is meant to free our spirits not imprison them in dogmas.  Spirituality is beyond human reason.  It is grasped more by the heart than by the head.  [anti-intellectualism]

14. Pragmatism

Protestantism:  Living in God's righteousness can bring immediate blessings as a sign of His favour.  These can include spiritual fulfilment, physical health, emotional happiness or financial success.  The same is true of church growth:  It too can be a sign of God's favour upon true belief.  [semi-Pragmatism]

Secularism:  Religion is too other-worldly.  It has not proven itself beneficial to present human needs.  Science and technology have proven practically beneficial.  The world has grown healthier and more prosperous because of them.  Science has proven itself true while religion only claims to be.  [Pragmatism]

15. Legal Positivism

Protestantism:  What is morally right and wrong is based on God's decrees and so is absolute.  [Moral legalism]

Secularism:  Religion claims there are moral absolutes.  Actually, what people consider morally right or wrong is based on cultural/religious norms and so is relative.  [Moral legalism]

16. Anthropological Pessimism

Protestantism:  Sin has left man totally depraved.  Therefore, even the good we do is tainted by it.  [Anthropological Pessimism]

Secularism:  Our psychological history (heredity & environment) effects our thoughts and actions.  What we perceive as good to do is influenced by it.  [Anthropological Pessimism]

17. Mistrust and Suspicion of Other Belief-Systems

Protestantism:  Other religions are false and often under diabolical influence.  They are at best human works giving a false sense of freedom from sin or security from damnation.  The Bible alone gives us true belief.  The battle is between false religion and true belief.  Until all are brought to faith in Jesus Christ the world will remain blind and enslaved to sin.  The consequence will be damnation for the unregenerated.  With belief in Christ comes freedom from sin through Christ's redemptive work and the eternal security it gives us.  [Mistrust of other religions and negative assessment of their value]

Note:  Historically Catholics have often embraced a similar attitude.  As with most of the premises presented this is not completely erroneous.  It is simply too one-sided, negative and legalistic an assessment.

Secularism:  Religions (and Christianity in particular) are false and often used by the religious elite to control their members.  They are at best human myths and superstitious rituals that seek to explain the natural universe and give one a sense of security from harsh natural forces and the reality of death.  More often they are a cause of intolerance and war.  Science gives us true knowledge of the natural world and universe.  Until our secular, pluralistic society came about the West was enslaved to organized religion and its incessant religious wars.  Secular pluralism gives us freedom from religious control and intolerance.  [Mistrust of religion/Christianity and negative assessment of its value]

18. Radical Egalitarianism

Protestantism:  All are equally sinners before God.  To think otherwise is Pharisaic hypocrisy.  This being so, no human being can claim special status before God.  Christ alone is our Mediator.  Grace comes to us directly through Him.  Thus, Mary and the saints have no personal merits or special intercessory power.  Claims of a sacramental priesthood with mediating powers or privilege is clerical arrogance and elitism.  [Egalitarianism]

Secularism:  All persons, beliefs and values are equal.  No religion has a corner on the truth.  To claim yourself in a privileged position before God because of your beliefs is arrogant and elitist.  [Egalitarianism]

19. Determinism and Fatalism

Protestantism:  Our human nature is corrupt and of itself doomed to eternal Hell.  We are saved only by faith.  Until we recognize this we tend not to realize our predicament nor address it properly.  We either don't see ourselves as sinners or, if we do, think we can save ourselves by our actions.  Faith alone saves.  Faith is given by means of God's grace.  No one can earn it.  God has to choose to give it.  Divine predestination determines your eternal future.  [Emphasis on humanity's enslavement to sin resulting in a tacit Denial of Free Will; Double Predestination]

Secularism:  Our human nature is controlled by unconscious biological and psychological drives.  Many of these drives are affected by heredity or by our upbringing and environment.  We cannot control them only respond to them in appropriate ways.  But because we are not always aware of this we frequently misunderstand them and respond in inappropriate ways.  When we do recognize there is a problem we either deny the cause or think we can repress it.  But we can only overcome the negative effects with professional help.  We cannot diagnose and treat ourselves.  Without it these drives will control one's future direction.

[Exaggerated emphasis on humanity's enslavement to unconscious drives resulting in a tacit denial of Free Will and a type of Double Predestination]

Note:  I am using here the psychological model (ala Freud & Skinner).  I could just as easily have used the economic model of Marx; the biological-evolutionist model; or the cultural anthropologist model.  Each supposes an unavoidable force we are not quite awares of that is controling much of our attitude, actions and destiny.  Usually a degree of liberation is offered either through the acceptance and application of the particular ideology's perscriptive claims, or by the enlightenment it offers.

20. Religious Relativism

Protestantism:  Denominations are merely different ways Christians corporately express their [Protestant] faith.  No one can claim with certitude his particular denomination is the only true one, only that it is truest for him.  [Egalitarianism/Nominalism]

Secularism:  Religions are merely different ways humans corporately express their spiritual beliefs.  No one can claim his particular religion is the only true one, only that it is true for him.  [Egalitarianism/Nominalism]

21. Simplistic Epistemology

Protestantism:  God's revelation is found in Scripture alone.  Scriptural truths are given with clarity and certitude.  The standard for interpreting Scripture rightly is Scripture itself.  [Epistemological Simplicity/Certitude; semi-Subjectism]

Secularism:  What is true for my life can be discerned by me alone.  My heart's promptings and my personal convictions are a sure guide.  Each person must judge his life by his own standard.  I must be true to my own self.  [Epistemological Simplicity/ Certitude; Subjectivism]

If I am correct about this premise then notice how it conflicts with earlier deterministic & pessimistic ones.  Protestantism (and secularistic views) have unresolvable internal contradictions.  For example claiming human reason corrupted by sin and yet using reason to understand and defend revelation; claiming faith is totally gratuitous and without human contribution yet challenging people to make a commitment in faith; saying all that we need to guide our lives by is in the Bible yet unable to verify this in the Bible; claiming we can be certain of our salvation yet doubting that those who renounce their faith or behave in a way markedly contrary to it were ever really saved; claiming to be a return to the beliefs of early Christianity yet dismissing Catholic elements in early Christian writings; escaping lack of historical evidence for Protestant beliefs in the early church by claiming the true church was always invisible (and evidently inaudible), yet having no problem tracing its historical development since the Reformation.

22. Privatization and Marginalization of Religion

Protestantism:  The Church's primary concern is the spiritual and moral life of her members while the state is properly concerned with the civic life of the community.  However the state, under God, should respect and reflect Christian beliefs and morals.  [Compartmentalization:  Between the private and civic spheres]

Secularism:  One's values and religious beliefs are strictly one's private concern.  Personal values and religious beliefs should not be imposed on the civic life of the whole community.  However the state should respect the different values and beliefs of its diverse members.  It does this by adopting an religiously neutral or secular position.  [Compartmentalization:  Between the private and public spheres]

23. "Either/Or" / Dichotomous Thinking

Protestantism:  A tendency to radically oppose doctrines in either/or categories.  Either one is saved by faith or works; either Scriptures is authoritative or the Church;  either righteousness is imputed by Christ or from oneself; either Jesus is our one Mediator or He is not (if you believe in the intercession of saints then He is not); either grace is from Christ or from the sacraments.  [Antithetical Approach/Oppositionalism]

Note:  The Catholic tendency is often to take a both/and approach.

Secularism:  A tendency to radically oppose ideas in either/or categories:  Either we have freedom or censorship; either you believe in tolerance or absolutes; either you favour individual rights or state/institutional control; either you believe in science or religion; either you believe in the separation of church and state or you believe in a theocracy.  [Antithetical Approach/Oppositionalism]

24. Unnatural Sexuality / Contraceptive Mentality / Hedonism

Protestantism:  Christian understanding of human sexuality is dichotomized.  Marital love is emphasized as the Christian ideal to the detriment of celibate love.  Vows of celibacy are seen as too restrictive and inhuman.  When externally imposed by the Church they lead to all kinds of hypocrisy and abuse.  Celibacy is left optional and always revocable.  The conjugal act is also dichotomized.  Morally it can be love-giving and pleasure-seeking without necessarily being open to procreation.  God's lordship here becomes a legal formality of restricting sex to within marriage, not over the integrity of the act itself.  Contraception is permissible.  The morality of variant sexual acts within marriage is not discussed.  The moral criteria for choosing to have children or not, and how many is largely undiscussed.  [Subjectivism/Gnosticism/Legalism]

Secularism:  Understanding of human sexuality is dichotomized.  Mutual affection and sexual pleasure are emphasized as the ideal to the detriment of marriage and chastity.  Marital vows are seen as too restrictive on sexual expression.  When externally imposed by social conventions they lead to all kinds of hypocrisy and abuse.  Marriage is left optional and always dissoluable.  The sexual act is also dichotomized.  Pleasure can be separated from love and either from procreation.  Each can be a separate end in itself.  Marriage becomes a legal formality without any intrinsic moral relation to sexual activity.  Contraception is not only permissible but often proper.  Variant sexual acts are accepted and encouraged.  Children are an option.  [Subjectivism/Gnosticism/Hedonism]

Note:  The Protestant view outlined in the last premise is largely modern but is a logical outcome of certain aspects of mainstream Protestantism's approach to marriage and sexuality which was inherently ambivalent, legalistic, and conventional.

******************************************************************

If what I am struggling to present is true --- if Protestant philosophical presuppositions have permeated our society in their secular form --- then beyond the challenge of Protestantism's familiarity and attractiveness is possibly a greater issue.  The issue is whether Protestantism can supply the needed corrective to many of the contemporary social problems it decries (individualism, subjectivism, egalitarianism, etc.).  For it is a carrier of the same disease.  In the end, while many Evangelicals have made heroic and admirable attempts at turning the tide of secularization, Protestantism itself is simply not radical enough to effect the needed change.  In fact, it is the precursor of the present situation. [/quote]

[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20030604155732/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ480.HTM"]http://web.archive.org/web/20030604155732/...smus/RAZ480.HTM[/url]

[Theoketos]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Oct 10 2004, 06:53 PM'] These arose from liberalism, not conservative Protestantism. [/quote]
Still no answer to Masons, KKK, and Jack Chick?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 10 2004, 12:34 PM'] Christianity itself has "pagan roots" that is, baptism itself is of pagan origin. Christians were not the first to baptize. Therefore Jesus must have been preaching for paganism. Catholics commune with saints on earth and in heaven. Don't try to turn it into one of your anti-intellectual propaganda debates. Your "theory" lacks any scholarship and screams "anti-Catholic rhetoric" [/quote]
Baptism is not of Pagan origin. The pre-Christian baptism of John the Baptist was not pagan! Pagan and Jewish are definitely not the same thing! Judaism was the preparation for Christianity. Paganism is false religion.

Voodoo, etc. are not Catholic religions, and are not condoned by the Church. This whole argument is nonsense.