Can someone check over this for me ?

[StColette]

[quote]The bible lets us know when all else fails go to the tradition of God, not man, truthfully a lot of Catholic tradition is mixed in from Roman Pagan worship (which many truthful catholics will admit) [/quote]

Could you be specific as to which pagan worships the Catholic Church promotes

[quote]YOU WILL NOT FIND, AND I REPEAT, NOT FIND, one prophecy that shows how we should pray to dead saints or Mary, [/quote]

[b]New Testament[/b]

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out ofHis eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God. This proves the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers are united.

Rev. 6:9-11 - God answers the prayers of the saints. In this case, he avenges their blood. We therefore ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 - in heaven the prayers of the saints rise up as incense before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his childrens' requests.

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but allows and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

[b]Old Testament[/b]

Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.

1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Job:33:23 an angel is allowed to intercede for man

Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 - David asks the angels to intercede for him by blessing and praising the Lord.

Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God.

Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 - deceased Onias and Jeremiah interceded in prayer for the Jews.

2 Macc. 15:14 - Judah has a vision in which Jeremiah the prophet is in heaven
praying for the people, interceding on our behalf.

Early Church Fathers

Hermas

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).
The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).
Pectorius

"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

Gregory of Nazianz

"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).
John Chrysostom

"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).
Ambrose of Milan

"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).
Jerome

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

[b]Communion of Saints[/b]

Now you may try saying that Christians here on earth are called saints and thus justifying the prayers of the saints being put before the throne of God, well also remember those in Heaven are saints as well.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Also remember that those who have died and gone on before us are not seperated from us.

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 12:26- when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

Now you're probably fixing to conclude that the "Apocrypha" is not true Scripture here's my proof against that assumption:

Council of Rome [A.D. 382])"Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus, one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books" (Decree of Pope Damasus).

A council held at Rome in 382 under St. Damasus gave a complete list of the canonical books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament (also known as the 'Gelasian Decree' because it was reproduced by Gelasius in 495), which is identical with the list given at Trent.

(Council of Hippo [A.D. 393])"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon, the twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (canon 36).

(Council of Carthage III [A.D. 397])"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the Canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach], twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ." (canon 47).

Pope Innocent I concurred with and sanctioned the canonical ruling of the above Councils (Letter to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse) in 405

And speaking of the "Apocrypha" they were included in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament from the third century B.C.), which was the "Bible" of the Apostles. They usually quoted the Old Testament scriptures (in the text of the New Testament) from the Septuagint.

The early Church councils that were held to determine the Canon of Scripture upheld the "apocrypha" as non-Catholics like to call them. Now if you are following the example that Martin Luther set out to do in 1517 with his removal of certain books "apocrypha" from the Old Testament you may also want to know this.Luther did not just disapprove of the "Apocrypha" in the Old Testament, he also disagreed with some of the New Testament books. He rejected from the New Testament Canon ("chief books") Hebrews, James ("epistle of straw"), Jude and Revelation, and placed them at the end of his translation, as a New Testament "Apocrypha." He regarded them as non-apostolic. Of the book of Revelation he said, "Christ is not taught or known in it." These opinions are found in Luther's Prefaces to biblical books, in his German translation of 1522. I for one know that the KJV upholds the Book of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation as true Scripture. I would not be willing to agree with someone who was willing to totally disect the Scripture the way he was trying to.

Now the King James Bible was formed from the the example of Scripture upheld at the Council of Javneh

[quote]+++ Even among the Jews the council held no authority to determine what was Canonical scripture and what was not.

+++(Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 2, page 174)." In any case, Christians have no reason to accept Jewish canon declared after our Lord ascension "

+++(Errata of the King James 1965)"This counsel (I.E. Javneh 90A.D.) not only declared the Deutero Canonical books as Christian fabrication but went so far as to required all Jews to curse the Name of Jesus of Nazerith.The council lacking in authority could not bring in end to the issue of the Deutero Canonical books. Even today the Ethiopian Jews still follow the original Canon of the septuagint. It is the counsil of Javneh's Canon that the Protestants accept and use for their Bible."

+++(Errata of the King James 1965)"The counsel had no real authority (even among the Jews) to determine the Canonicity of scripture. Considering this counsel happened 60 years after Christ died there is no reason for Christians to accept their verdict."

+++(Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1146)"There is no evidence that the Rabbis at the council of Javneh (90A.D.), had the legitimate authority to determine scripture for the Jewish religion"

+++(Encyclopaedia of Religion, Vol. 2, page 173)"The authority of council ( Javneh 90A.D.) was rejected by the early Christians and the Jews of Ethiopia and Alexandria."

+++(Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible 1963 p.1324)"The council of Javneh ( 90 A.D.) was made out above Rabbis ( or teachers ) with no religious authority to accept or reject scripture."

+++(The Books of The Bible 1997 p.102)"Jews in many parts of the Roman Empire ( such as Alexandria and Ethiopia ) refused to accept Javneh's ( 90A.D.) claime of authority"

+++(Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible 1963 ) "Even in the second century of the Christian era the Jewish rabbis were not fully agreed on the Canonicity of certan books (e.g. Cant, Eccl; cfr. Also 4, Esd 14,44ff)."

+++(The Encyclopedia of Judaism, vol 15 page 117)" says that the limit of the third part (Writings) was not finalized until mid of second century. In addition, the Hebrew Canon was also not accepted by Ethiopian Jews who accept Septuagint to this day "

+++(Dictionary of Biblical Literacy 1986. p.321)"Precisely when Jewish leadership officially adopted the traditional 39 books of the so-called "Hebrew Canon" is not known; nor is there agreement as to exactly what criteria were used in determining the Canon."

+++(Scripture alone? 1999)"The decision of a Jewish council which was held more than 50 years after the resurrection of Christ are not binding on the Christian community just as the ritual walls of Judaism are not binding on the Christians.... The council was to some extent a polemic directed specifically against the "sect" of Christianity, therefore, was inherently opposed to Christianity. These Jews most likely accept the shorter Pharisaic Canon precisely because the early Christians accepted the longer Septuagint canon the decisions of this council represented the
judgment of just one branch of Judaism within Palestine not of Judaism as a whole"

+++(Background To The Bible, An introduction to Scripture Study 1978. p.124)There is no record of a decision reached by an authoritative Jewish body closing the Old Testament Canon. Each synagogue was authonomous;"

+++(Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147)."The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven Deutero Canonical books "

+++It was from the council of Jamnia or Javneh ( 90 A.D. ) which the Protestant reformers drew their Old Testament Canon.

+++(DEFENDING THE DEUTERO CANONICALS 1996 p.621)To justify this rejection of books that had been in the Bible since before the days of the apostles (for the Septuagint was written before the apostles), the early Protestants cited as their chief reason the fact that the Jews of their day did not honor these books, going back to the council of Javneh in A.D. 90. But the Reformers were aware of only European Jews; they were unaware of African Jews, such as the Ethiopian Jews who accept the Deutero Canonicals as part of their Bible. They glossed over the references to the Deutero Canonicals in the New Testament, as well as its use of the Septuagint.

+++(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition Copyright 1993)most Protestant bodies, whose canon conforms to that of the contemporary Hebrew Bible. There the books follow the order of the Palestinian Hebrew Canon, which appears to have been adopted by A.D. c.100, although most of the books had clearly received Canonical status well before this time.

+++(Errata of the King James 1965 p.324)"This counsel (I.E. Javneh 90A.D.) not only declared the Deutero-Canonical books as Christian fabrication but when so far as to required all Jews to curse the Name of Jesus of Nazerith.The council lacking in authority could not bring in end to the issue of the Deutero Canonical books. Even today the Ethiopian Jews still follow the original Canon of the Septuagint. It is the counsil of Javneh's Canon that the Protestants accept and use for their Bible."

+++(encyclopedia Americana 1995 Vol 15 p.1496)"The Protestant Old Testament Canon is based upon the Jewish council of Javneh (90 C.E.)"

+++(Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible 1963 p.1287)"It was from Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai and the council of Jamnia (or Javneh) which the Protestant reformers drew their Old Testament Canon."

+++(Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1148)."Protestantism derives its Old Testament Canon from the European Jews who followed the Canon of the council of Jamnia or Javneh (90 CE.)."[/quote]

I don't think I would uphold the decision of a Jewish council about Scripture of the Old Testament when that same council who declared the following:

[quote]This counsel (I.E. Javneh 90A.D.) not only declared the Deutero Canonical books as Christian fabrication but went so far as to required all Jews to curse the Name of Jesus of Nazerith.(Errata of the King James 1965) [/quote]

[quote]or even attend Mass which is derived from an anceint pagan deal. [/quote]

Please be specific as to what pagan deal.

But on the part of attending Mass or Church which ever you want to refer to it as

Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 13:44 - On the Sabbath almost the entire city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

Acts 20:7 - this texts shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

The Catholic Mass is based completely upon Scripture

The Entrance Rite:
· Sign of the Cross (Matt 28:19; cf. John 14:13-14; Acts 2:21)
· Formal Greetings:
· A- “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ…” (2 Cor 13:14)
· B- “The grace and peace of God our Father…” (Eph 1:2)
· C- “The Lord be with you.” (2 Tim 4:22; cf. Matt 1:23; 28:20)
· Lord, Have Mercy (Matt 15:22; 17:15; 20:30-31)
· Glory to God (Luke 2:14; cf. Rev 4:11; 5:11-14)
· Prayers & Amen (Neh 8:6; Ps 41:13; Rom 16:27; Heb 13:20-21; Rev 7:16)
The Liturgy of the Word:
· Alleluia (Psalms 146-150; Rev 19:1-6)
· Profession of Faith (Mark 9:24; John 11:27)
The Liturgy of the Eucharist:
· Holy, Holy, Holy (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8);
· Blessed is he… (Ps 118:26; Mark 11:10)
· Words of Institution (Mark 14:22-24; Matt 26:26-28; Luke 22:19-20; 1Cor 11:23-25)
· Memorial Acclamations:
· A- “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again” (cf. 1 Thess 4:14-15; 1 Cor 15:3-23)
· B- “Dying you destroyed our death…” (1 Cor 16:22)
· C- “When we eat this bread…” (1 Cor 11:26)
· D- “Lord, by your cross and resurrection…” (Luke 4:42)
· Lord’s Prayer (Matt 6:9-13; Luke 11:2-4; cf. Mark 14:36; Gal 4:6)
· Doxology: "for the kingdom, the power, and the glory..." (after Matt 6:13 only in some biblical manuscripts; cf. Rev 4:11)
· Greeting of Peace (John 14:27; 16:33; 20:19-20; 20:26)
· Lamb of God (John 1:29, 36; cf. Rev 5:6-13; 22:1-3)
· Communion Preparation: “Lord I am not worthy…” (Luke 7:1-10)
Ending of the Mass
· Go in peace to love and serve the Lord. (Lk 7:50, 2 Chron 35:3)

[quote]Truthfully even Christmas and all that came from Constantine and them in the 300-400 era and the Christian Jews of that time battled against it and were persecuted because they didn't believe in the mixing of all these religions into one pot.[/quote]

Since the Western Christmas (25 December) falls near the Winter Solstice (21 December), it occurs at the same time of the year as certain pagan solstice feasts. One such feast was the Roman celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Nativity of the Invincible Sun), which commemorated the birth of the sun god Mithra. After Emperor Aurelian declared Mithra/Sol Invictus to be the patron of the Roman Empire in 274 AD, this feast in his honor became very popular.

Careful study shows that Western Christians were celebrating Christmas on 25 December in the late third century, before the Sol Invictus festival was widely celebrated in the Empire. So Christians did not create this feast to oppose a popular Roman one. As far as Christmas being a "continuation" of a pagan festival, this seems unlikely when one considers the abhorrence many Christians felt toward paganism. Believers of Jewish descent did not suddenly lose their deep aversion to idolatry after Baptism, and converts from paganism often despised the religions which they left behind. Thousands of Christians died during the Romans persecutions rather than engage in pagan rites. Why would they embrace the hated celebrations of their persecutors?

So how did Christ's birth come to be celebrated on 25 December? Early Christians believed that Jesus was crucified on 25 March (according to the Julian Calendar, that is). They also believe that this was the very same day that He was conceived in Mary's womb about thirty-four years earlier. It seemed most fitting to them that the first day of His earthly mission be the same day as his last, thus connecting the mystery of the Incarnation with that of the Redemption.

[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan8.html"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan8.html[/url]

-----------------------------------

Any comments or thoughts on more I could add or take away or whatever heehe

God Bless,
Jennie Catherine

Edited October 9, 2004 by StColette

[Lil Red]

i would add about the Mass being pagan

go through the whole Mass with Scriptures to back it up.

good place to start (courtesy of lifeteen [url="http://www.lifeteen.com/LoadDoc.asp?Action=View&ID=124&DocType=4)"]http://www.lifeteen.com/LoadDoc.asp?Action...=124&DocType=4)[/url]

"On the following Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord." -Acts 13:44

SITUATION EXPLAINED
Have you ever been told that the Catholic Mass is not biblical? I was talking to a really good Protestant friend of mine the other day who mistakenly told me that, "The Catholic Mass is absolutely un-biblical, and it only focuses on the 'priest' and 'the bread wafers' and not on God's Word." Have you ever been faced with a situation like this one?

SOLUTION OFFERED
Did you know that the ENTIRE MASS from start to finish is TOTALLY based on and founded in scripture? Virtually every prayer and response we say during the celebration of Mass is based on the Word of God, preserved in scripture. Rather than beg you or any one else, to believe me, I'll give you just a few examples:

*
* In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19)
* Amen (1 Chron. 16:36)
* The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. (2 Cor. 13:13)
* The Lord be with you. (Ruth 2:4)
* Glory to God in the highest and peace to His people on Earth (Lk 2:14)
* Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)
* May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands.....(Ps 50:23)
* Lift up your hearts, we lift them up to the Lord (Lam 3:41)
* Let us give thanks to the Lord our God (Col 3:17)
* Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might...... (Is 6:3)
* Hosanna in the highest, blessed is He who comes..... (Mk 12:9-10)
* Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith (1 Tim 3:16)
* Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again (1 Cor 15:3-5)
* Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness (2 Macc.14:36)
* From age to age.....from east to west (Ps. 113:3)
* Through Him, with Him, in Him (Rom. 11:36)
* This is the lamb of God, happy are we who are called..... (Rev 19:9)


Hopefully you can now trust that it wasn't just like a bunch of priests sitting around a monastery a couple thousand years ago, making up random prayers like some wanna-be Hallmark convention. Let's give the Holy Spirit some credit, huh?

Our Church, the UNIVERSAL (Catholic) faith, founded by Christ, led by the Spirit, and entrusted to Peter is THE OLDEST Christian religion. Our Mass, celebrated in countless languages around the world, hundreds of thousands of times a day, with the same readings, is totally, absolutely, unequivocally, 100% founded in scripture.

Take pride in the fact that you're part of a long and glorious tradition, and be proud to be Catholic! The apostles were.

SALVATION GIVEN
"On the following Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord." -Acts 13:44

Go in peace to love and serve the Lord. (Lk 7:50, 2 Chron 35:3)

Bible Geek

[StColette]

hehe I have the Mass broken down into Scripture in one of my tracts lol I totally didn't even think about adding it lol okie pokie here goes

[Theoketos]

[quote] 
The bible lets us know when all else fails go to the tradition of God, not man, truthfully a lot of Catholic tradition is mixed in from Roman Pagan worship (which many truthful catholics will admit) 

[/quote]

To answer this question I would point to tradition which the Holy Spirit instructs the Church to have and keep (bind and loose) and those made up and perpetuated by man. *cough reformation thought cough*

[phatcatholic]

[quote]Careful study shows that Western Christians were celebrating Christmas on 25 December in the late third century, before the Sol Invictus festival was widely celebrated in the Empire. So Christians did not create this feast to oppose a popular Roman one. [/quote]
even if it was created to oppose the pagan feast, there is nothing wrong w/ this. what could possibly be wrong w/ taking a pagan feast, removing the pagan components and imbuing it with christian principles? Instead of the Sun Mithra, we now have the Son Jesus Christ. the holiday is now perfectly christian, w/o anything pagan being honored.

here are some articles on the subject of paganism that may help. among the list are a couple articles on supposedly "pagan" catholic holidays:

[i][u]"The Church is Pagan"[/u][/i]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp"]Is Catholicism Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://members.tripod.com/frjoe/bigot4.htm"]Is the Roman Catholic Church Christian?[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ377.HTM"]Is Catholicism Half-Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/otherihs.html"]Do Catholics Worship Another Jesus?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/christian.html"]Is the Catholic Church Christian?[/url]
--[url="http://davidmacd.com/catholic/were_catholics_pagan.htm"]Did the Catholic Church Blend Paganism with Christianity?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan1.html"]Is the Blessed Trinity a Pagan Concept?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan2.html"]Is the Incarnation a Pagan Concept?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan3.html"]Is the Virgin Birth Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan4.html"]God's That Die?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan5.html"]Is Marian Devotion Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/marian12.html"]Mariolatry???[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp"]Saint Worship?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp"]Do Catholics Worship Statues?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan7.html"]Do Catholics Worship the Sun?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan8.html"]Are Christmas and Easter Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/03724b.htm"]Christmas[/url]
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a99.htm"]Santa or Satan?: Reply to a Funny Fundamentalist [/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm"]Easter[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/HALLWEEN.HTM"]Halloween: Its Origins and Celebration[/url]
--[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.5/story1.html"]Smashing Pumpkins (Halloween)[/url]
--[url="http://answers.org/Issues/Halloween.html"]What about Halloween?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/ex204.html"]Graven Images?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/acts1025.html"]Pope Worship?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/sunbursts.htm"]Of Sunbursts, Baals, and Adventist Paranoia[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/Borrowing_from_the_Pagans.htm"]Did the Catholic Church "Borrow Many Items from the Pagans"?[/url]


pax christi,
phatcatholic

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Oct 9 2004, 05:36 PM'] even if it was created to oppose the pagan feast, there is nothing wrong w/ this. what could possibly be wrong w/ taking a pagan feast, removing the pagan components and imbuing it with christian principles? Instead of the Sun Mithra, we now have the Son Jesus Christ. the holiday is now perfectly christian, w/o anything pagan being honored.

[/quote]
lol phat that came from an article you posted in a Pagan Holiday thread a little ways back it was on a link that you gave. But yeah I see your point and I've actually added into the original post about the fact that even though it is near the same day as a pagan festival we do not celebrate a pagan festival at Christmas rather it is a Christian celebration of the birth of Christ but I can't edit the original post lol And thanks bunches for the articles lol Looks like I have a lot of reading to do lol

Edited October 9, 2004 by StColette

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Oct 9 2004, 02:29 AM'] SOLUTION OFFERED
Did you know that the ENTIRE MASS from start to finish is TOTALLY based on and founded in scripture? Virtually every prayer and response we say during the celebration of Mass is based on the Word of God, preserved in scripture. Rather than beg you or any one else, to believe me, I'll give you just a few examples:

*
* In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mt 28:19)
* Amen (1 Chron. 16:36)
* The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. (2 Cor. 13:13)
* The Lord be with you. (Ruth 2:4)
* Glory to God in the highest and peace to His people on Earth (Lk 2:14)
* Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)
* May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands.....(Ps 50:23)
* Lift up your hearts, we lift them up to the Lord (Lam 3:41)
* Let us give thanks to the Lord our God (Col 3:17)
* Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might...... (Is 6:3)
* Hosanna in the highest, blessed is He who comes..... (Mk 12:9-10)
* Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith (1 Tim 3:16)
* Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again (1 Cor 15:3-5)
* Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness (2 Macc.14:36)
* From age to age.....from east to west (Ps. 113:3)
* Through Him, with Him, in Him (Rom. 11:36)
* This is the lamb of God, happy are we who are called..... (Rev 19:9) [/quote]
Do you know where I can get this entire list?

[StColette]

Dude,

[url="http://www.campbellcounty.com/~ourlady/What%20Is%20The%20Order%20Of%20The%20Mass.htm"]http://www.campbellcounty.com/~ourlady/Wha...0The%20Mass.htm[/url]

Scroll all the way to the bottom

[cmotherofpirl]

QUOTE"The bible lets us know when all else fails go to the tradition of God, not man, truthfully a lot of Catholic tradition is mixed in from Roman Pagan worship (which many truthful catholics will admit)
YOU WILL NOT FIND, AND I REPEAT, NOT FIND, one prophecy that shows how we should pray to dead saints or Mary," QUOTE




THe bible is not the rule of authority, the Church is. THe bible is THE Catholic book, so everything we do is from biblical origins.

The Mass is decended from Temple worship which goes on forever, Jesus altered the Passover feast specifically for us.

Saints are not dead, since souls are immortal, remember God is a God of the Living, not the dead.

The Body of Christ goes on forever, Paul himself calls for intercession of others.

Edited October 12, 2004 by cmotherofpirl