Presidential Debate

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='curtins' date='Oct 8 2004, 10:14 PM'] "I own a timber company? Thats news to me. Need some wood??" [/quote]
That was really funny. He sounded like my dad.

[Apollo]

The early poll taken on [url="http://www.cnn.com"]CNN.com[/url] shows 82% of viewers thinking Kerry won the debate.

Edited October 9, 2004 by Apollo

[Ash Wednesday]

I would be wary of that, however -- the online polls are not very accurate -- people from other countries can vote in those.

And there's no question -- Bush is not popular overseas.

Edited October 9, 2004 by Ash Wednesday

[Apollo]

[quote]I would be wary of that, however -- the online polls are not very accurate. [/quote]

I agree...but that is a pretty HUGE margin of error.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Apollo' date='Oct 8 2004, 10:39 PM']
I agree...but that is a pretty HUGE margin of error. [/quote]
Even better news on the CBS online poll: 90% said Kerry won.

Before the debate was even over.

God bless America! And the internet!

[Paladin D]

MSNBC has Kerry at over 70%, and Fox News has Kerry over 60%. I only watched very little of the debate (beginning portion). It seems to me that Kerry was more on the offensive, constantly attacking the President.

[Paladin D]

What's pretty interesting was, MSNBC did a poll before the Presidental Debates started. The poll said "Will the Presidental Debates have a magnificant change on your vote?" (or something of that nature), and the overwhelming majority voted [b]"no"[/b].

Winning in debates does not necessarily equal votes, though no doubt these will effect some peoples' decisions.

[Ash Wednesday]

I actually felt like they both wanted boxing gloves. It was pretty fun to watch. Totally electric.

What I liked was Tom Brokaw actually *laughing* at Kerry's forced pledge to the camera.

Boy, that was interesting.

P.S. Bush looked nervous with the environmental question, and Kerry looked like he crapped his pants at the abortion question. As he should have.

I'll stop "spinning to the choir" now. Gonna go watch a movie!

Edited October 9, 2004 by Ash Wednesday

[popestpiusx]

Happily, I was at an English Pub drinking Bodingtons Ale smoking my pipe. I missed the debate. I'm still voting for Peroutka unless someone can prove to me that Cheney made Edwards cry.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 8 2004, 11:21 PM']Happily, I was at an English Pub drinking Bodingtons Ale smoking my pipe.  [/quote]
You are bringing me to an occasion of sin, you know -- making me jealous.

[White Knight]

Bush totally wiped the floor with John Kerry in this one "He CLEARLY" did this time, unlike last time,where he barely won.


I think most net polls are Biast, not letting certian people vote on them, I can't find the polls in time to vote on them, and when I do, its too late. They make the polls online so bad, there placed in terrible places. When a POLL is open, it sould be right in front of the first page you click, say on FoxNews, CNN, MSNBC Etc, I dislike how there BAIST on their polls.


Bush came out strong, and won this debate.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Oct 9 2004, 01:56 AM'] I think most net polls are Biast, not letting certian people vote on them, I can't find the polls in time to vote on them, and when I do, its too late. They make the polls online so bad, there placed in terrible places. When a POLL is open, it sould be right in front of the first page you click, say on FoxNews, CNN, MSNBC Etc, I dislike how there BAIST on their polls.
[/quote]
I don't know why they bother with those online polls, really. Again, we can have people all around the world vote on those things whether they watched the debate or not. And we don't have to argue over whether or not Bush is popular outside of the U.S.

But at least they are nice enough to put "not a scientifically valid survey" underneath it.

Actually, I will say that Bush isn't hated by all Europeans. My boyfriend and his family (EU citizens) don't understand some of the things Bush does, but they prefer him to Kerry.

[Good Friday]

Since I am possibly the only Kerry supporter left on the phorum, I guess I'm left to respond to all of this.

[quote name='Aluigi']watchin? bush is doin better than last time, it seems to me that he's winning.[/quote]
While President Bush certainly did do better than last time, it seems to me that the polls are indicating that Sen. Kerry has won again -- though not by as wide a margin. I expect Sen. Kerry to win the third debate, as well, since President Bush (by his own campaign's admission) is more comfortable in a town hall setting than in a formal debate setting. I think we all expected him to do better than last time -- after all, how could he do any worse?

Although, I do have to say, the first half of the debates in which he was practically shouting at the audience certainly didn't seem to be working for him.

[quote name='curtins']down with kerry the flip flopping lyer!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]
Please name one time in which Sen. Kerry has flip-flopped or lied.

[quote name='Aluigi']Bush isn't makin the same mistakes as last time i don't think...[/quote]
One significant mistake that he brought with him from last time and from his entire campaign is repetitiveness and slogans. By repeating things over and over again, usually attacks on Sen. Kerry's character and credibility, Bush showed that he had practically no substance to his campaign. He usually repeats slogans -- America Has Turned The Corner, It's A Hard Job, You Can Run But You Can't Hide, etc. While this may all sound good, it's not helping him -- he has no substance to his campaign, and voters aren't falling for it.

[quote name='the_rev']He said at the rally yesterday, bout' Kerry being the "Most LIberal Canidate" He said some other stuff tonight he said yesterday!!![/quote]
It was interesting, because Bush said early in the debate that Sen. Kennedy was the most liberal man in the Senate. That caught me by surprise, because I have heard time and time again that Sen. Kerry and Sen. Edwards are the two most liberal men in the Senate, so I was surprised to hear Sen. Kennedy thrown up there was the most liberal. Later in the same debate, President Bush said that Sen. Kerry was the most liberal in the Senate -- contradicting his earlier statement that Sen. Kennedy was. For anyone paying attention, it was clear that President Bush was just resorting to his weightless attacks against Sen. Kerry, attacks that he must use because he cannot defend his own miserable four-year record.

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS']He's pulling out the "I'm a Catholic, I was an altar boy" thing again.

Yeah, well you're a $%$#$@$#@ Catholic Mr. Kerry!!!![/quote]
Well, he [b]is[/b] Catholic and he [b]was[/b] an altar boy. Of course, he's not your kind of Catholic, because he refuses to legislate church teaching and turn America into a Catholic theocracy.

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS']LOL At the end of Prez Bush's comments on abortion and tax money Matt said "Holy sh**! Go Bush!!!" And as Kerry started talking again he said "Kerry, you're smoking weed!"[/quote]

[quote name='hugheyforlife']pro-life stuff i think went very well for Bush!! he made some awesome points!! what a cool guy[/quote]

Let's talk about President Bush's comments on his supposedly pro-life position. He made several statements that I could reply to instantly, and in fact said out loud immediately after he made the statements:

[quote name='President Bush']My answer is, we're not going to spend taxpayers' money on abortion.[/quote]
Is that his answer? According to STOPP, during the 2002-2003 fiscal year, Planned Parenthood received $254.4 million from the federal government, which accounts for about 33% (1/3) of its income. This is not down from 1999 (the Clinton Administration), when they also estimated that federal funding made up about 1/3 of Planned Parenthood's income. Sources: [url="http://www.all.org/stopp/rr0404.htm"]Here[/url] and [url="http://www.all.org/stopp/rr9902e.htm"]Here[/url]. That may be his answer when he's speaking to voters who don't know better, but his real answer is that he hasn't decreased funding to one of the nation's largest abortion providers, and that Planned Parenthood is still receiving the same amount of funding as it did under the Clinton Administration.

[quote name='President Bush']I signed the partial-birth -- the ban on partial-birth abortion. It's a brutal practice. It's one way to help reduce abortions. My opponent voted against the ban.[/quote]
First of all, the President knew as well as the courts did that the ban on partial-birth abortion would be ruled unconstitutional, because it did not provide for the health and life of the mother -- prerequisites that the Supreme Court laid out on limiting late term abortions. This was a tactic by the Republican administration and congressional leaders to pander to pro-life groups with a bill that had no real substance, and as a result it has wasted taxpayer money and is now being overturned by the courts -- as everyone knew it would be, including them.

Additionally, partial-birth abortion is just one method of late term abortion. There are three other methods of late term abortion that can be used instead of partial-birth abortion -- salt poisoning, prostaglandins and hysterectomy. Pro-lifers agree that all three are more painful to the fetus, and that all three are more dangerous to the mother than partial-birth abortion. So, the result of the partial-birth abortion ban is not only that it will not stop a single abortion because there are other late term methods, but also that it will hurt the fetus more and cause more danger to the mother.

[quote name='President Bush']I think there ought to be parental notification laws. He's against them.[/quote]
President Bush claims that he wants parental notification laws, and as Governor of Texas he even signed a parental notification bill into law. What happened? Well, the justices that he had appointed to the Texas Supreme Court overturned the bill -- these were strict constructionists, those who interpret the Constitution strictly by its letter. Even as strict constructionists, and even as his appointees, the justices of the Texas Supreme Court overturned his parental notification law. Will the same thing happen as he appoints justices to the Supreme Court of the United States? He said tonight that there would be no litmus test for justices and judges, and that he was appointing them for strict interpretation of the Constitution -- not pro-life views.

[quote name='President Bush']I signed a bill called the Unborn Victims of Violence Act.[/quote]
That has nothing to do with abortion, and the Unborn Victims of Violence Act was nothing more than a symbolic law aimed, again, at pandering to pro-life activists. Even though it would acknowledge two victims instead of one in cases like Laci Peterson's, it would not increase the penalty for the murderer -- typically, the maximum sentence possible in a state is given to a murderer anyway, regardless of how many murders he or she committed. Again, this is just more meaningless pandering by the Bush Administration and Republicans in Congress, it has no substance.

[quote name='President Bush']I also think we ought to continue to have good adoption law as an alternative to abortion.[/quote]
And yet there are still not enough people willing to adopt children. Rather than trying to solve this problem, President Bush, his brother Jeb and Republicans in Florida have limited the number of perfectly acceptable adults able to adopt children by not allowing gay men and women the opportunity to adopt a child who was not wanted by his or her heterosexual parents. Apparently, Bush and his Republican brother and friends in Florida would rather see more abortions than adoptions by gay men and women.

[quote name='President Bush']And we need to promote maternity group homes, which my administration has done.[/quote]
But did he give them $254.4 million in the 2002-2003 fiscal year like he gave Planned Parenthood?

[quote name='President Bush']Culture of life is really important for a country to have if it's going to be a hospitable society.[/quote]
So let's sum up. Even though President Bush believes that a culture of life is really important to have, he has maintained the same amount of funding to Planned Parenthood -- the largest abortion provider in the country. He passed a partial-birth abortion ban that everyone knew would be overturned, a bill that everyone knew would not prevent a single abortion. He supported the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, a bill that had nothing to do with abortion and wouldn't have increased the penalty for murderers. President Bush has failed the pro-life cause during his four years.

The biggest remaining hope of pro-lifers is that President Bush will appoint pro-life justices to the Supreme Court of the United States. But he didn't appoint pro-life justices to the Texas Supreme Court, and tonight he wouldn't promise to appoint pro-life justices to the U.S. Supreme Court. Instead, he said:

[quote name='President Bush']And so, I would pick people that would be strict constructionists . . . And that's the kind of judge I'm going to put on there.  No litmus test except for how they interpret the Constitution.[/quote]

If Bush maintains funding for abortion, if he passes bill that will be overturned and have no ultimate bearing on abortion, if he won't appoint pro-life justices to the Supreme Court, and if he won't change social and economic policy so that it's easier for women to bring children into the world, how exactly does he expect to make America's culture into a culture of life, a culture that he claims is very important?

[quote name='Ash Wednesday']I prayed a rosary before the debate and up into it's beginning. There is no no question that Mary had a role in the abortion questions coming up.[/quote]
Our Lady may have played a part in the questions, but I really doubt that she played any part in Bush's answer -- an answer that was filled with distortions and lies. Our Lady isn't into distortions and lies, she gave birth to the Truth.

[quote name='the_rev']"I did vote for the 87 billion dollars, before I voted against it."[/quote]
Sen. Kerry has admitted that he made a mistake in talking about the $87 billion, and he has clarified his position -- he voted against the $87 billion to protest President Bush's bad policy in Iraq, because he felt that Bush was leading us in a radically wrong direction. Bush still got plenty of money, and yet troops still went without body armor and batteries for their flashlights. Is his excuse only going to be what his opponent did?

At least Sen. Kerry can admit his mistake in talking about the $87 billion. When is President Bush going to admit his mistake in denying basic and life-saving materials to our troops?

[quote name='the_rev']Also, John Kerry is the first person to solely run his campaign on raising taxes, just look at his voting record. That's why they call it a record! It stays with you![/quote]
Sen. Kerry has had to make some tough decisions when it comes to the economy. One of those tough decisions was defying his own party in order to balance the budget, something that he did in collaboration with Republicans and the Clinton Administration.

However, Sen. Kerry has promised to only raise taxes for those whose incomes exceed $200,000 a year. The middle class will receive a tax cut. He has promised this so many times that it is highly unlikely that he would break his promise during his four-year term. Saying that he will raise taxes for the middle class when he has promised, time and time again, that he will not is simply a lie on the part of Republicans.

[quote name='the_rev']"This is the first time I've met John Edwards, he's senator Nobody"[/quote]
We know now that, like so many things from the Bush/Cheney campaign, that was a lie. Cheney had, at the very least, met Sen. Edwards at the National Prayer Breakfast.

[quote name='curtins']"I own a timber company? Thats news to me. Need some wood??"[/quote]
According to ABC News, President Bush does have part-ownership of a timber company, and the $84 is accurate. In addition, President Bush made several other fact distortions -- he claimed a boost in the child tax credit twice as high as he achieved, he said that twice the amount of small businesses will face a raise in taxes than is actually the case, he implied again that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction a day after admitting that he didn't, and he said that we have 75% of al-Qaeda though that is not the case. Source: [url="http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20041009_118.html"]Here[/url]

[quote name='White Knight']Bush totally wiped the floor with John Kerry in this one "He CLEARLY" did this time, unlike last time,where he barely won.[/quote]
First of all, Bush didn't "barely win" last time -- he lost. Secondly, early polls are indicating that Kerry won this one as well, and I have little doubt that official polls from organizations like Gallup will confirm that.

The fact is that Bush has lied on all fronts, including the pro-life front. It's time for regime change in this country and a President who will be honest with us, even if we don't like some of those honest answers sometimes.

[Ash Wednesday]

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Oct 9 2004, 02:47 AM'] Since I am possibly the only Kerry supporter left on the phorum, I guess I'm left to respond to all of this. [/quote]
And I shall try to make a quick response to you.

[quote]Please name one time in which Sen. Kerry has flip-flopped or lied.[/quote]

Iraq War.

[quote]It was interesting, because Bush said early in the debate that Sen. Kennedy was the most liberal man in the Senate.  That caught me by surprise, because I have heard time and time again that Sen. Kerry and Sen. Edwards are the two most liberal men in the Senate, so I was surprised to hear Sen. Kennedy thrown up there was the most liberal.  Later in the same debate, President Bush said that Sen. Kerry was the most liberal in the Senate -- contradicting his earlier statement that Sen. Kennedy was.  For anyone paying attention, it was clear that President Bush was just resorting to his weightless attacks against Sen. Kerry, attacks that he must use because he cannot defend his own miserable four-year record.[/quote]

Since I have yet to see this, I cannot respond much. However, liberality used to be a virtue, a long time ago.

[quote]Is that his answer?  According to STOPP, during the 2002-2003 fiscal year, Planned Parenthood received $254.4 million from the federal government, which accounts for about 33% (1/3) of its income.  This is not down from 1999 (the Clinton Administration), when they also estimated that federal funding made up about 1/3 of Planned Parenthood's income.  Sources: [url="http://www.all.org/stopp/rr0404.htm"]Here[/url] and [url="http://www.all.org/stopp/rr9902e.htm"]Here[/url].  That may be his answer when he's speaking to voters who don't know better, but his real answer is that he hasn't decreased funding to one of the nation's largest abortion providers, and that Planned Parenthood is still receiving the same amount of funding as it did under the Clinton Administration.[/quote]

Bush can't do anything with that any more because Congress has got its nose stuck in everything and all his administrative agencies which control a lot. It is also [i]Congress[/i] who does bills for money. The President has no control on this.

[quote]President Bush claims that he wants parental notification laws, and as Governor of Texas he even signed a parental notification bill into law.  What happened?  Well, the justices that he had appointed to the Texas Supreme Court overturned the bill -- these were strict constructionists, those who interpret the Constitution strictly by its letter.  Even as strict constructionists, and even as his appointees, the justices of the Texas Supreme Court overturned his parental notification law.  Will the same thing happen as he appoints justices to the Supreme Court of the United States?  He said tonight that there would be no litmus test for justices and judges, and that he was appointing them for strict interpretation of the Constitution -- not pro-life views.[/quote]

If you understand the Constitution correctly, you'll realize that Roe vs. Wade was unConstitutional and all the laws banned by it were not. Bush doesn't say this, but it's implied in what he says (call it good politics).

[quote]And yet there are still not enough people willing to adopt children.  Rather than trying to solve this problem, President Bush, his brother Jeb and Republicans in Florida have limited the number of perfectly acceptable adults able to adopt children by not allowing gay men and women the opportunity to adopt a child who was not wanted by his or her heterosexual parents.  Apparently, Bush and his Republican brother and friends in Florida would rather see more abortions than adoptions by gay men and women.[/quote]

Adoptions do not directly affect abortions. My sister is a good example. Bush and Jeb are fighting many things, and you keep trying to undermine each one. Homosexuals cannot get married, why should they be able to raise children as though they are married?

[quote]So let's sum up.  Even though President Bush believes that a culture of life is really important to have, he has maintained the same amount of funding to Planned Parenthood -- the largest abortion provider in the country.  He passed a partial-birth abortion ban that everyone knew would be overturned, a bill that everyone knew would not prevent a single abortion.  He supported the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, a bill that had nothing to do with abortion and wouldn't have increased the penalty for murderers.  President Bush has failed the pro-life cause during his four years.[/quote]

No, those who failed are the liberal progressives who try to interperet the Constitution however they see fit to each situation. He did all he could. That's more than Kerry can say by far, and not something that he would even attempt to do.

[quote]The biggest remaining hope of pro-lifers is that President Bush will appoint pro-life justices to the Supreme Court of the United States.  But he didn't appoint pro-life justices to the Texas Supreme Court, and tonight he wouldn't promise to appoint pro-life justices to the U.S. Supreme Court.  Instead, he said:[quote]And so, I would pick people that would be strict constructionists . . . And that's the kind of judge I'm going to put on there.  No litmus test except for how they interpret the Constitution.[/quote][/quote]

Again, read what I said above. If you understand the Constitution correctly, as Bush seems to do, then that's something to be said, and you'd understand that abortion today is unConstitutional.

[quote]Our Lady may have played a part in the questions, but I really doubt that she played any part in Bush's answer -- an answer that was filled with distortions and lies.  Our Lady isn't into distortions and lies, she gave birth to the Truth.[/quote]

I don't believe I'd call either candidate a liar, though I'd call one false.

[quote]Sen. Kerry has had to make some tough decisions when it comes to the economy.  One of those tough decisions was defying his own party in order to balance the budget, something that he did in collaboration with Republicans and the Clinton Administration.

However, Sen. Kerry has promised to only raise taxes for those whose incomes exceed $200,000 a year.  The middle class will receive a tax cut.  He has promised this so many times that it is highly unlikely that he would break his promise during his four-year term.  Saying that he will raise taxes for the middle class when he has promised, time and time again, that he will not is simply a lie on the part of Republicans.

According to ABC News, President Bush does have part-ownership of a timber company, and the $84 is accurate.  In addition, President Bush made several other fact distortions -- he claimed a boost in the child tax credit twice as high as he achieved, he said that twice the amount of small businesses will face a raise in taxes than is actually the case, he implied again that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction a day after admitting that he didn't, and he said that we have 75% of al-Qaeda though that is not the case.  Source: [url="http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20041009_118.html"]Here[/url][/quote]

Money takes second place to morals. Maybe he distorted some, accidentally, that's not immoral. Maybe the media distorted some, accidentally, that's not immoral.

[quote]The fact is that Bush has lied on all fronts, including the pro-life front.  It's time for regime change in this country and a President who will be honest with us, even if we don't like some of those honest answers sometimes.[/quote]

Bush has not lied about being pro-life. He upholds it. Neither has Kerry. The difference is, Kerry doesn't let what he believes influence his politics.