Canadian Priests Are Preparing For Jail

[Good Friday]

First Aloysius...

when i found out about u and hyper when i came to this board, i was overjoyed to meet some cool ppl with SSA who were fightin it! i was like wow, these ppl are REALLY strong in their faith, that's gotta be a really tough thing to do. I mean, i know if i had to fight opposite sex attraction (hehe) to follow the will of God, it'd be really hard. In fact, as i discern more and more about my vocation, that might be something i will have to combat (OSA lol) and yeah, that's a tough thing to give up

I thank you for sympathizing with me, most people don't do that. However, I have to point out that OSAs and SSAs are two entirely different thing in the eyes of the Church. With OSAs, you have the option to marry or become a priest. People with SSAs have neither of these options, since the Church has determined that people with SSAs cannot marry, nor can males with SSAs become priests or religious. Basically, in the eyes of the Church, we have no options other than loneliness for our entire lives for something we can't help. This is obviously not the case for heterosexuals, who are free to explore any of the vocations.

i can understand why u have fallen. it is really tough when the world around u tells u it's alright to give in, and your very being finds itself attracted to something that your soul wants so much to avoid. i will pray for you. please, even if u cannot stay the course against your same sex attraction, do not leave the Church. we love u and would mourn your loss.

First of all, I don't feel that I've fallen. Secondly, my soul does not want to avoid my same-sex attractions anymore than my body does. As for leaving the Church, that has already been done, and it hasn't been done based solely on the SSAs issue. That is certainly an issue, since the Church has basically condemned my mother and has forced me into societal isolation because of our SSAs, but it is not the only issue. The issue is that I've never had the Catholic faith, nor have I ever really believed in the infallibility of this church, as much as I've tried to make myself believe it. I don't know why I went through with the RCIA process, perhaps to impress others or perhaps to find a place to belong. But I regret having gone through with it, because the choice of religion should never be made to impress others, and I clearly have not found a place to belong. The Church, despite all the platitudes that say otherwise, hates me. So this was clearly the wrong decision on my part, a decision I have repeated several times and won't be repeating again.

Now Vianney...

I dont know about you GF or others but I have given up my whole life to follow something that was written 2000 years ago buy ppl who "dont know what they are talking about"

No you haven't. Can you marry? Can you become a priest? Can you become a brother? Can you choose to be single? Yes, any of those things could be your vocation. But the Church has already told those with SSAs that our only vocation is the single life. So no, you have not given up your whole life as Catholics with SSAs are forced to do. The Church has given you options; it has given us none because it hates us and doesn't want us, so it will make it as impossible as it can for us to be here, so that we will leave. And so, I'm leaving.

Just because you are gay doesnt mean carp. You take up your cross whatever it maybe just like everyone else has to.

My "cross," as y'all seem fond of calling it, is very much unique. It is totally unlike anything heterosexuals have to deal with, as I have already explained above. Your failure to see that clearly indicates the problem of the Church. It refuses to recognize diversity and wants everything to conform to a nice little mold, and everything does not conform to the Church's molds. The Church has seen that homosexuality will not conform nicely to its molds, so now the Church just wants homosexuals to get out of the Church so that it can get back to conforming.

[JP2Iloveyou]

First Aloysius...

I thank you for sympathizing with me, most people don't do that.  However, I have to point out that OSAs and SSAs are two entirely different thing in the eyes of the Church.  With OSAs, you have the option to marry or become a priest.  People with SSAs have neither of these options, since the Church has determined that people with SSAs cannot marry, nor can males with SSAs become priests or religious.  Basically, in the eyes of the Church, we have no options other than loneliness for our entire lives for something we can't help.  This is obviously not the case for heterosexuals, who are free to explore any of the vocations.

First of all, I don't feel that I've fallen.  Secondly, my soul does not want to avoid my same-sex attractions anymore than my body does.  As for leaving the Church, that has already been done, and it hasn't been done based solely on the SSAs issue.  That is certainly an issue, since the Church has basically condemned my mother and has forced me into societal isolation because of our SSAs, but it is not the only issue.  The issue is that I've never had the Catholic faith, nor have I ever really believed in the infallibility of this church, as much as I've tried to make myself believe it.  I don't know why I went through with the RCIA process, perhaps to impress others or perhaps to find a place to belong.  But I regret having gone through with it, because the choice of religion should never be made to impress others, and I clearly have not found a place to belong.  The Church, despite all the platitudes that say otherwise, hates me.  So this was clearly the wrong decision on my part, a decision I have repeated several times and won't be repeating again.

Now Vianney...

No you haven't.  Can you marry?  Can you become a priest?  Can you become a brother?  Can you choose to be single?  Yes, any of those things could be your vocation.  But the Church has already told those with SSAs that our only vocation is the single life.  So no, you have not given up your whole life as Catholics with SSAs are forced to do.  The Church has given you options; it has given us none because it hates us and doesn't want us, so it will make it as impossible as it can for us to be here, so that we will leave.  And so, I'm leaving.

My "cross," as y'all seem fond of calling it, is very much unique.  It is totally unlike anything heterosexuals have to deal with, as I have already explained above.  Your failure to see that clearly indicates the problem of the Church.  It refuses to recognize diversity and wants everything to conform to a nice little mold, and everything does not conform to the Church's molds.  The Church has seen that homosexuality will not conform nicely to its molds, so now the Church just wants homosexuals to get out of the Church so that it can get back to conforming.

Good Friday, I have not been a member of this board long enough to realize that you struggles with SSA. I sincerely apologize if I have ever said anything to offend you. Not struggling with this myself, I cannot understand what it feels like, however, I do trust in the Church and her guidance. The Church does not hate homosexuals. She loves you as children of God just as she loves everyone else. Have you ever heard of Courage? If not, it is a ministry completely faithful to the Church to help people who struggle with SSA.

The Church only says that homosexuals should not be ordained priests because they love you. They are looking out for your well-being by not having you put yourself in an occasion of sin. As for marriage, Christ made it clear that marriage is to be between a man and a woman. To allow otherwise would be to deny the teachings of Christ and thus to deny herself.

On behalf of all Catholics, I would like to sincerely apologize for any unjust treatment that you or your mother have felt because of your SSAs. That is not in keeping with Church teaching. To discriminate unjustly against ANYONE is sinful.

I would beg you to not leave the Church. She's your mother! She loves you! There is help out there. Go to EWTN.com and do a search through old questions with the keyword "homosexuality." You will probably find some good info on Courage. We all have crosses to bear. Some may be heavier than others, but Christ never asks us to do something that is impossible. Offer your sufferings up to Him and just watch the graces pour in.

God bless you.

[Good Friday]

Good Friday, I have not been a member of this board long enough to realize that you struggles with SSA. I sincerely apologize if I have ever said anything to offend you. Not struggling with this myself, I cannot understand what it feels like, however, I do trust in the Church and her guidance. The Church does not hate homosexuals. She loves you as children of God just as she loves everyone else. Have you ever heard of Courage? If not, it is a ministry completely faithful to the Church to help people who struggle with SSA.

I've heard of it, and I'm not interested, nor am I interested in continuing to be Catholic. I think I've made that abundantly clear. And I do believe that the Church hates homosexuals. Thank you for sympathizing with me, though. To my knowledge, you've not said anything to offend me.

The Church only says that homosexuals should not be ordained priests because they love you. They are looking out for your well-being by not having you put yourself in an occasion of sin. As for marriage, Christ made it clear that marriage is to be between a man and a woman. To allow otherwise would be to deny the teachings of Christ and thus to deny herself.

First of all, no he didn't.

Secondly, the thing about not allowing us to be priests because the seminary would be an occasion of sin is bunk. The Church allows homosexuals to go to college, does it not? Well, at college, many dorms (especially for freshmen) are all-male dorms, with communal showers. Throughout college, a student will most likely have a roommate of the same sex. Are those not the same occasions of sin the Vatican is discouraging by not allowing us to become priests? By your reasoning -- excuse me, by the Church's bigoted reasoning, not yours perhaps -- homosexuals should not go to college. We should not play sports. We should not take gym class. We should not swim in public swimming pools nor do anything that may require the presence of naked or semi-naked men (i.e., anything having to do with a locker room, which would include the gym). Isn't this a fair assessment? Such is consistent with the teaching of Cardinal Ratzinger, who believes that certain rights -- such as normal housing and jobs -- can and possibly should be taken away from homosexuals.

On behalf of all Catholics, I would like to sincerely apologize for any unjust treatment that you or your mother have felt because of your SSAs. That is not in keeping with Church teaching. To discriminate unjustly against ANYONE is sinful.

I agree. But I believe the Church itself is doing it, which means the Church itself is sinning. That obviously leaves me in quite a predicament when it comes to the infallibility of the Church.

I would beg you to not leave the Church. She's your mother! She loves you!

I have two mothers, both of whom are gay. I have no other mother, nor do I want anymore mothers.

There is help out there. Go to EWTN.com and do a search through old questions with the keyword "homosexuality." You will probably find some good info on Courage.

As already stated, I don't want "help." I don't want to be rid of my SSAs, nor do I want to learn to accept them but not act on them and thus become the docile (albeit lonely) servant of the Church. I have already heard of Courage, and I have been on their mailing list. I'm not interested. Even if I wanted to be rid of my SSAs, or wanted to be celibate but not a priest or brother my entire life, I would still not remain Catholic, because I will not be a part of a church that has all but said that both of my mothers are going to hell, that my family is not a family, etc. I'm just not interested.

We all have crosses to bear. Some may be heavier than others, but Christ never asks us to do something that is impossible. Offer your sufferings up to Him and just watch the graces pour in.

I waited for the graces to pour in for quite some time, they never did. When they didn't, I started to wonder why, and it occurred to me that perhaps it's because Jesus doesn't intend for me to live as the celibate, lonely, docile servant of the Church that has oppressed so many for so long, so he won't give me the grace to overcome something that's a part of who he made me to be. Or maybe there is no grace because there is no God. Either way, I see no reason to return to the Catholic Church, and I'm not going to. But I appreciate that you care.

[JP2Iloveyou]

GF, I'm truly sorry to hear all of that. You will be in my prayers.

[PedroX]

JPII

I am not argueing with Church teaching, but I would like to point out the flawed reasoning in your statement on why the church does not encourage men with SSA to find Holy Orders. If we say it is an occasion for temptation/sin, we reduce men with SSA to animals (something the Church does NOT teach). We are saying that somehow the SSA is so much stronger, so much more overpowering than OSA that these men can not control their urges. Apparently, men can learn to overcome thier lust for women, but not for other men. Please not again, I am not arguing against Church teaching, rather against this particular reasoning, which the Church does not definitively teach. The bigger problem is actually that any political minority eventually develops a persecution complex (witness the behavior of us traditionalist/conservatives on this board!!). This complex leads to trying to undermine the system to accomplish the group's goals. (Whether it me woman/girl liturgical servers, teaching that homosexuality is not a sin, covering up the sins of fellow priests, whatever). Eventually, you end up with a big problem.

The problems facing the church today comes from a lack of fidelity. Not SSA per se, but rather that some priests have decided that fidelity (obeidence, celibacy whatever) did not apply to them.

Whew... Sorry about the soapbox. I have great respect for your orthodoxy, JPII, and hope that I have not offended. I just get tired of reducing this urge to a level that insults the humanity of the people who have it. It is a disordered state, its actions are sin, but no worse or less controllable than others.

peace...

[Jake Huether]

JPII

I am not argueing with Church teaching, but I would like to point out the flawed reasoning in your statement on why the church does not encourage men with SSA to find Holy Orders.  If we say it is an occasion for temptation/sin, we reduce men with SSA to animals (something the Church does NOT teach).  We are saying that somehow the SSA is so much stronger, so much more overpowering than OSA that these men can not control their urges.  Apparently, men can learn to overcome thier lust for women, but not for other men.  Please not again, I am not arguing against Church teaching, rather against this particular reasoning, which the Church does not definitively teach.  The bigger problem is actually that any political minority eventually develops a persecution complex (witness the behavior of us traditionalist/conservatives on this board!!).  This complex leads to trying to undermine the system to accomplish the group's goals.  (Whether it me woman/girl liturgical servers, teaching that homosexuality is not a sin, covering up the sins of fellow priests, whatever).  Eventually, you end up with a big problem. 

The problems facing the church today comes from a lack of fidelity.  Not SSA per se, but rather that some priests have decided that fidelity (obeidence, celibacy whatever) did not apply to them.

Whew...  Sorry about the soapbox.  I have great respect for your orthodoxy, JPII, and hope that I have not offended.  I just get tired of reducing this urge to a level that insults the humanity of the people who have it.  It is a disordered state, its actions are sin, but no worse or less controllable than others.

peace...

May be a combo of both. Who knows.

But to say that the Church is NOT considering that a person with SSA being with men 24/7 is a dangerous situation for the soul is nuts.

They aren't animals, you're right. But they aren't God either. And only God could make it through that without sinning.

It is a huge occassion to sin. Much more so than gym, or college, etc. where you aren't constantly pelted with the temptation.

If I was in an all girls school... Well, let's just say that thought is ocassion enough for me.

[JP2Iloveyou]

JPII

I am not argueing with Church teaching, but I would like to point out the flawed reasoning in your statement on why the church does not encourage men with SSA to find Holy Orders.  If we say it is an occasion for temptation/sin, we reduce men with SSA to animals (something the Church does NOT teach).  We are saying that somehow the SSA is so much stronger, so much more overpowering than OSA that these men can not control their urges.  Apparently, men can learn to overcome thier lust for women, but not for other men.  Please not again, I am not arguing against Church teaching, rather against this particular reasoning, which the Church does not definitively teach.  The bigger problem is actually that any political minority eventually develops a persecution complex (witness the behavior of us traditionalist/conservatives on this board!!).  This complex leads to trying to undermine the system to accomplish the group's goals.  (Whether it me woman/girl liturgical servers, teaching that homosexuality is not a sin, covering up the sins of fellow priests, whatever).  Eventually, you end up with a big problem. 

The problems facing the church today comes from a lack of fidelity.  Not SSA per se, but rather that some priests have decided that fidelity (obeidence, celibacy whatever) did not apply to them.

Whew...  Sorry about the soapbox.  I have great respect for your orthodoxy, JPII, and hope that I have not offended.  I just get tired of reducing this urge to a level that insults the humanity of the people who have it.  It is a disordered state, its actions are sin, but no worse or less controllable than others.

peace...

Pedro, that's cool. I certainly agree, and in hindsight, I can see how I would have portrayed that idea in my last post. That certainly was not my intention. I just have to agree out of obedience if nothing else with Pope John Paul, Cardinal Ratzinger, Cardinal Bevilacqua, and Bishop Bruskewitz when they say that a seminary is not a place for a man with SSA. I am sure there are many priests doing wonderful work while combating this, but I have to belive that the Pope knows more than me. When he says that homosexuals should not be ordained to the priesthood, he is not saying it in arrogant condemnation as if he has even one ounce of that in his body, he is saying it out of love.

Perhaps men and women who struggle with this, though they may not be called to marriage or the priesthood, are called to something different. For example, they could be great witnesses to chastity and living a life for Christ. They could be great ministers to others who are struggling with SSA. Every member of the Church is needed and God has a special plan for everyone. I don't care if you are heterosexual, homosexual, black, white, brown, male, female, rich, poor, whatever. God has a plan and a purpose for your life.

[PedroX]

Jake, and JPII,

I agree with the obedience part, and I agree with saying that the Pope uses no condemnation in his few statements on the matter. However, the Holy Father does not uses arguements that reduce people to their urges. That was my point. Thanks for being open and listening. One of the great missions of John Paul II has been to remind all of us of the intrinsic dignity in every person. I just thought a reminder of that without slipping into heterodoxy was important.

peace...