help!

[Spoken4byChrist]

i'm probably not posting this in the right place, so correct me if im wrong.
i'm evangelizing (with?) a baptist and its an ongoing thing. anyways, we started talking about confession and he said that: "penance has no scriptual basis, the word penance comes from a mistranslation by Jerome in the latin vulgate, the word is repent not be penitent". is that true? and how do i answer to that?
any help would be great, thanks!
God Bless

[StColette]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18120"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=18120[/url] This may help some, it speaks about Confession and how we must confess our sins and also that we must do penance for them.

I wish I could explain it in more detail but I'm at my Uni right now and not at my computer with all my resources on it. Just read over that link I posted and if that doesn't help please let us know.

God Bless,
Jennie

[Spoken4byChrist]

thats awesome! thanks!
but i'd still like to know if what he said was true; next time i talk to him, i'll ask him where he got that from.
thanks again!
God Bless

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Spoken4byChrist' date='Oct 5 2004, 07:12 PM'] i'm probably not posting this in the right place, so correct me if im wrong.
i'm evangelizing (with?) a baptist and its an ongoing thing. anyways, we started talking about confession and he said that: "penance has no scriptual basis, the word penance comes from a mistranslation by Jerome in the latin vulgate, the word is repent not be penitent". is that true? and how do i answer to that?
any help would be great, thanks!
God Bless [/quote]
well, i don't know latin, but it really doesn't matter. the word penance may not be found in whatever bible version he is using (it does appear in the Douay-Rheims, which is an english translation of the Latin Vulgate), but the premise is biblical.

see this from Fr. Mateo:[list]
[*]>Fr. Mateo,
Just curious as to what translation of the Bible you are using. In response to Joey on the subject, "School Uniforms, etc." you quoted from Luke 13:3 (or 13:5) in answer to his question about abstinence from meat on Fridays.
Your translation read "Unless you do penance, you will all likewise perish."
The Greek for what you have translated "penance" is "metanoeo" which according to the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon, means "feel remorse, repent, or be converted."
Using the phrase "do penance" makes a big difference in the interpretation of this verse, and seems to me to be difficult to justify based on the meaning of the word.
Sincerely


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Rick,

You are quite right about "metanoeo". Strictly interpreted, it refers to a change of mind.

The English word "penance" seems to evoke something more physical and painful.

We believe that the two concepts must coalesce in the actual Christian life. Hence our ordinary speech allows us to say, "I'm abstaining from candy as a penance." The abstinence is undertaken as a testing and strengthening of the will, a desire to suffer something for the love of Christ, an effect of the interior transformation which is "metanoia", and a help in our effort to achieve that transformation with the help of God's grace.

Perhaps, I should have illustrated Friday Lenten abstinence form meat, not by Luke 13:3,5, but by 1st Cor. 9:27: "I pommel my body and subdue it...." or by Matt. 16:24: "If any man wants to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

Sincerely in Christ,
Father Mateo
[/list]
more to come later.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Thy Geekdom Come]

First off, I must establish my credentials. I am an advanced Latin and Classics student at the University of Nebraska, as well as a former seminarian with concentrations in philosophy and theology.

A little background on the Latin:

1. [i]Penance[/i] is a noun, [i]paenitentia[/i].
2. [i]Repent[/i] is a verb, [i]paeniteo[/i].
3. [i]Repentance[/i] is a noun, [i]paenitentia[/i].
4. There is no verb form of [i]penance[/i], in English or in Latin.

There is no distinction in Latin between "repent" and "be penitant" or "penance" and "repentance," therefore, there can be no mistranslation of [i]repent[/i] as [i]be penitent[/i]. To the Romans, your friend's argument would be ridiculous. In fact, [i]to repent[/i] means [i]to make penance[/i].

There is no difference between [i]penance[/i] and [i]repentance[/i] in Latin. Both are the same word, [i]paenitentia[/i].

The [i]re[/i] in [i]repent[/i] and [i]repentance[/i] is an addition in the English. As can be seen, it is completely absent in the Latin and makes no difference in meaning.

In the very least, it can be seen that St. Jerome could [b]only[/b] translate the word into this Latin word, there were no other options. It wouldn't be a mistranslation, therefore.

The difference between [i]penance[/i] and [i]repentance[/i] is a distinction made in modern English, not in ancient language, as can be inferred from PhatCatholic's post.

In modern English, both still refer to the same thing, a changing of the heart, but one, [i]penance[/i] emphasizes the process of changing the heart (that is, after all, what penance does), while the other, [i]repentance[/i], emphasizes the change of heart itself. The ancient languages treated them the same.

[StColette]

hmm I noticed a typo in my tract lol the part that says :

[quote]
Luke 9:8

8 But Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, "Behold, half of my possessions, Lord, I shall give to the poor, and if I have extorted anything from anyone I shall repay it four times over." [/quote]

That should be Luke 19:8

[Spoken4byChrist]

thank you sooo much! you guys are awsome!
i hope that one day i might know half of the things you guys know.
thanks again,
God Bless:D