Donna Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 icthus, i disagree w/ your argument, but don't have a source to back it up. it's a strong gut feeling that it is wrong to speculate on [lord forgive me] 'mary's 'prospective' original sin'; she's different. i don't know how to say it other than she was conceived in original justice; as if the fall had never happened. and leave it at that. she was saved from sprawling into the mud pit. and leave it at that. what blows me away; adam and eve really did have everything. father said b-4 the fall, they were above the laws of nature [having dominion over animals, but also wind, sea, etc;]. but they fell so low that the laws of nature are now high above them. and us. adam is blamed [tho' eve sinned first]because he is the head; and as the head he let himself be sullied. it's no picnic being the head, all yow feminazi's. but you're in good company, mr. huether, as adam also blamed eve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Why do boys get preferential treatment? I never blamed her. Haaaa**she did it first***chew! Hmmm. There must be some dust in the air. LOL! Nah, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I see your point. Adam should've taken a swipe at that stupid snake while he had the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 The benefit to Mary was this: That upon Christ's Ascension into heaven, He opened the gates of heaven, which had been closed to all generations since Adam and Eve. Now the just, (especially the Most Blessed Virgin) could enter the kingdom of heaven. Even though she'd been immaculately conceived and preserved from sin by her Divine Son, Lord, and Savior, had He not atoned for our sins, she still couldn't have gotten into heaven. Do I get a peanut??????? Jake, Eve didn't just taste the apple and then pass it along to Adam. You know this! Adam was created, then Eve taken from his rib and made from his own flesh and bone...He was supposed to look after her and provide for her and protect her. He was to be her helpmate and companion. He stood right there and listened to the serpent telling her that no, she wouldn't die; she'd become just like God, if only she'd eat the forbidden fruit. Adam wanted to know if the serpent was telling the truth, or if God was. Just in case God was telling the truth, he wasn't gonna be the first one to take the bite! But just in case God was a liar, and the serpent was telling the Truth (Ahem, the original sin! Pride, wanting to be like God!) he used his companion as a guinea pig and stood idly by while she bit the apple, waiting to see what would happen to her before he himself took the bite! Then, if that wasn't bad enough, he had the gall to point his finger at God and say, "Hey, you put her here, and she's to blame, so...actually, you're kinda to blame, aren't ya?" (paraphrasing here, of course. ) Men! Oooooooops, did I say that out loud? Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 CMom, Mary was saved from sin by a gift of Grace. She did not have to be pure, nor transmit original sin. Neither is a male neccesary to transmit original sin. I'm going to have to do some digging, but this is from a lecture by Pat Madrid and Scott Hahn, and some others. Mary's sinlessness was an unearned gift to honor her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 There is an old (church fathers) analogy used to describe Mary's salvation. Suppose there is a pit in the ground. Some people will be saved by, after falling in, they are pulled out. Others might be saved by being ordered around the pit thus never having to fall in. Regular humanity is in the pit. Mary was saved by having been ushered around the pit. Both are saved by grace . . . it just has two different manifestations. Mary's is at the moment of Conception . . . ours comes at our baptism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted October 1, 2003 Author Share Posted October 1, 2003 (edited) My opponents main argument is something alone these lines: "How could Mary have been saved from a sin that she didn't actually commit (or in this case, wasn't imputed to her) and therefore DIDNT ACTUALLY EXIST in the first place" Edited October 1, 2003 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 (edited) bump I need an answer to this please! Refer to the original argument posted on pg. 1 Edited October 2, 2003 by ICTHUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Baptism saves us from original sin. If mary was normally concieved she would have had original sin as well. This is an inherited sin not something any of us commit. WE are saved thru Baptism and Mary saved thru God's intervention. Does this help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 Okay, new response So, rather than being saved from her sin, she was saved from the capability of sinning? This is salvation in a manner entirely different than that salvation applicable to the rest of the elect! Surely this must require some extensive argumentation, if we are to show different outlines through which the work of Christ saves us. No, Mary was well and truly saved from her sin, in that she was prevented from falling into the stain of original sin in the first place. Without the merits of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross which, applied to her early, preserved her from the stain of original sin, she would have been a slave to sin, just like the rest of us. The way I like to think of it is that just as original sin, a "virus" if you will, was about to be imputed onto her, grace entered her and blocked it out. The filling up with grace, cancelled out the "filling up with sin" which "tried" to happen at the same time. This is an extremely difficult concept to understand, but I hope you can understand what I'm saying... She still could have sinned, but her conscience and morality would have been in the same state Eve's was before the Fall. She had the capability to sin, yes, because she had free will, but she wasn't a slave to sin like we are, or were if you happen to be regenerate, because she was preserved from original sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 "How could Mary have been saved from a sin that she didn't actually commit (or in this case, wasn't imputed to her) and therefore DIDNT ACTUALLY EXIST in the first place" The same way that God saved you from drug addiction, prostitution, and becoming a chain saw murderer....By HIS grace! (Of which, Scripture tells us, Mary is "full".) Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted October 3, 2003 Author Share Posted October 3, 2003 So, going back to my opponents original question, "rather than being saved from her sin, she was saved from the capability of sinning?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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