ICTHUS Posted September 29, 2003 Share Posted September 29, 2003 I'm in a semi-debate with someone about the immaculate conception at the moment, and the following came up. Their response is in quotes, mine is in plain text. I made a response, but then had second thoughts...I figured it might be a bit heterodox. Your thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, rather than being saved from her sin, she was saved from the capability of sinning? This is salvation in a manner entirely different than that salvation applicable to the rest of the elect! Surely this must require some extensive argumentation, if we are to show different outlines through which the work of Christ saves us. (Me) Yes and No. Recall that the atonement was a propitiation for our sin - Christ Jesus endured the wrath of God that we rightfully deserve for our sin on the Cross at Calvary. Marys "prospective" original sin, therefore, merited eternal reprobation in Hell. Christ Jesus, therefore, would have taken upon Himself at Calvary the punishment for Marys "prospective" original sin, and thus when the merits of Christs death on the Cross were applied to her at the instant of her conception, she was "preserved" from Original Sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 29, 2003 Share Posted September 29, 2003 Yes we always must remember that God is outside of time and all moments are present to him at the same time. Mary is the Ark that holds the Word of God. She was in the same state we would all be in, but for the sin of Adam and Eve. When the angel greets MAry, he calls her Full of Grace. The Greek word is kecharitomene, which is the perfect passive participle, which indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, "completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." If Mary had not been born sinless, she would have transmitted sin to Jesus. How could something impure carry God for nine months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted September 29, 2003 Share Posted September 29, 2003 Yes we always must remember that God is outside of time and all moments are present to him at the same time. How could Mary be full of grace before before Jesus was even conceived (much less crucified)? That is what I would ask those who challenge the Immaculate Conception, especially if they use the KJV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted September 30, 2003 Author Share Posted September 30, 2003 Thanks guys, but you're all sort of missing the plot of why I posted this. I wanted to know what exactly the atonement did for Mary. In relation to the following statement, "Marys "prospective" original sin, therefore, merited eternal reprobation in Hell. Christ Jesus, therefore, would have taken upon Himself at Calvary the punishment for Marys "prospective" original sin, and thus when the merits of Christs death on the Cross were applied to her at the instant of her conception, she was "preserved" from Original Sin." Would this be an accurate statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I think you've got it right on, ICTHUS. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted September 30, 2003 Author Share Posted September 30, 2003 If Mary had not been born sinless, she would have transmitted sin to Jesus. Cmom, this line of argument is faulty, as original sin is passed down through the father, not the mother. However, I argued that because St. Paul writes in Romans that our sinful flesh is sold into bondage to slavery (i.e. original sin), if Marys flesh (and specifically her womb) were sold into bondage to slavery, and Jesus is God, and God cannot tolerate sin, then God would have had a hard time inhabiting a womb, and inDouche, absorbing nutrients and imbibing blood and fluids (for, as Cardinal John Newman put it, Jesus did not merely pass through Mary, he imbibed and absorbed her very flesh) from a sinful womb would have been unbearable for Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Original sin comes from conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Just this Sunday Father said that the original sin is passed on through the man... but I see also through conception... Anyway, Our Lady was born, so to speak, as Adam: In original justice. Icthus, you have the Douay, Genesis 3:15 says, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman... she shall crush..." This raises questions for me, number one being, Tho' God speaks of our Lady after the Fall in Gen. 3:15, was she not conceived in His mind before...before Adam? Wasn't she always there, an idea in the mind of God? And number two, aren't all of our "conceptions", that is, being known and conceived in the Almighty's mind, from the beginning, in eternity, if you understand me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted September 30, 2003 Author Share Posted September 30, 2003 Just this Sunday Father said that the original sin is passed on through the man... but I see also through conception... Anyway, Our Lady was born, so to speak, as Adam: In original justice. Icthus, you have the Douay, Genesis 3:15 says, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman... she shall crush..." This raises questions for me, number one being, Tho' God speaks of our Lady after the Fall in Gen. 3:15, was she not conceived in His mind before...before Adam? Wasn't she always there, an idea in the mind of God? And number two, aren't all of our "conceptions", that is, being known and conceived in the Almighty's mind, from the beginning, in eternity, if you understand me? No, I dont understand you, donna I see two possibilities. I think of the Grace which allowed Mary to be preserved from original sin as like a chemical entering a cell that stops a poison from getting in (the poison being original sin) One of two scenarios would logically follow from the immaculate conception model. 1. Assuming, at Our Ladys conception, that original sin was "planning on" entering into her, either grace entered her at the exact moment when original sin tried to get in, thus blocking out sin. 2. Or, original sin never "tried" to get in at all, because of the grace which prevented it from trying to do so. The former case would fit my argument better, but what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I think of it like this: h = Holy Spirit (resesive) H= Holy Spirit (dominant) St Joachim had a x/y/h cromisome (sp?) and St Anne had a y/y/h. As it turned out, upon conception, Mary was y/y/H. Since Mary had the Holy Spirit, dominant gene - then a the moment of conception when y/y first existed and the soul of Mary became realized, then no possible hint of corruption could exist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Jake, Good try, but really bad genetics... Women are XX Two recessives do not make a dominant. Having two recessive genes for a trait means that that is the trait that will be displayed physically. Icthus, I don't think there is a defined answer to your question. Any answer would have to be theological speculation, which is generally not the best tool for evangelization/apologetics... That said, of your two senario's it seems the former makes more sense (imho). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Just this Sunday Father said that the original sin is passed on through the man... but I see also through conception... I see what this priest is saying; we have original sin because of Adam's sin, hence throught the father, the father being Adam. But if one does not take the statement in the right context, we can come up with some really whacked out theories--my husband read this thread and said that if we take this phrase in black and white, that original sin comes only from the man then we could clone a woman and have a person free from original sin. (Of course since the original would have original sin from HER father, we'd assume the clone would, too, but you see the general line of thought.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I see what this priest is saying; we have original sin because of Adam's sin, hence throught the father, the father being Adam. But if one does not take the statement in the right context, we can come up with some really whacked out theories--my husband read this thread and said that if we take this phrase in black and white, that original sin comes only from the man then we could clone a woman and have a person free from original sin. (Of course since the original would have original sin from HER father, we'd assume the clone would, too, but you see the general line of thought.) Wasn't Eve the first one to sin anyway? Not to make this one sex v. the other... We both are sinners. But wasn't Eve the one who first was dooped and then she tempted Adam? Why is the blame put on Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 We don't know the answer to that question EXACTLY Jake, but theologians often believe/teach that its because Adam was right there and allowed Eve to sin, he should have protected her and told her not to disobey, but he went right along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emalouhow Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Thanks guys, but you're all sort of missing the plot of why I posted this. I wanted to know what exactly the atonement did for Mary. In relation to the following statement, QUOTE "Marys "prospective" original sin, therefore, merited eternal reprobation in Hell. Christ Jesus, therefore, would have taken upon Himself at Calvary the punishment for Marys "prospective" original sin, and thus when the merits of Christs death on the Cross were applied to her at the instant of her conception, she was "preserved" from Original Sin." Would this be an accurate statement? I heard an analogy explaining this once so I thought I'd share.... Imagine there is a huge mud pit. We walk along and every time we sin it's like falling down into this mud pit...we get all dirty and yucky. But God comes along and pulls us out of this mud pit (if we genuinely ask Him), cleans us off, and sets us back on track. And of course, we say "Thank you for saving me." With Mary, rather than lifting her out of the mud pit, God saved her from falling in it all together. He still saved her ("My spirit rejoices in God my SAVIOR"), but He saved her from falling into the pit at all. I don't know if this helps any.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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