Jonle Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 I think of it this way OSAS is true, but it's only true when one has reached the point where sanctifying grace permanently resides in one's soul. When a person has reached the point of no return of complete submission to the will of God in their life they are saved and there is no un-saving them, unless they apostasize and completely reject Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Jake, how about hearing from a former OSAS believer? I was a Southern Baptist through no fault of my own . OSAS is the doctrine that once a person is "saved" by "accepting Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior" he is heaven-bound, and nothing -- not even sin -- can prevent him from reaching that destination: once he has been "saved," he is always "saved" -- meaning that he'll go straight to heaven when he dies (whether he be found in the pulpit when death comes, in a married lover's bed, or during commission of a bank robbery). "Belief" is the only requirement for heaven. Martin Luther, inventor of OSAS, expressed it like this (from the Letter to Melanchthon, "Let Your Sins Be Strong": No sin can separate us from Him [Christ], even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Many verses are used to support OSAS, but the foundational Scripture is John 6:37-40: "All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." The Bible promises, say the OSAS proponents, that every one who believes will have eternal life, and that [Jesus] should lose nothing [read, "no one"] that the Father has given him. Therefore, once a person is saved, he cannot lose his salvation. God suspends the rules for the "saved." The 10 Commandments no longer apply to them. 1 Cor 6:9 which states that "neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, not sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherited the kingdom of heaven" doesn't apply to those who believe. Belief is what counts -- not behavior. After all, Luther said that even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times a day, nothing can separate us from Christ! OSAS proponents say that people like me (I became an atheist after I left the Baptists) and James Templeton were never really "saved." We went through the motions, but we weren't sincere enough, or committed enough, or lacked sufficient faith, that we just thought we were "saved." Templeton was a pastor, an assistant to Billy Graham, who lost his faith, declared that Christianity was false, and died apostate. (You can find info about Templeton on the Net.) Obviously, this creates a problem in logic, so to solve it, the OSAS folks declare that people like us went through the motions but weren't really saved (even though we thought we were). It's like getting a vaccination. Small pox vaccinations will cause a pox and a scar if they "take." So you are sure you're immune. Rubella vaccinations do not result in any outward sign -- you know your shot didn't "take" only if you later develop Rubella. There are no outward signs to give one the certainty that one is REALLY "saved." That's why (IMO) people keep answering "altar calls" and getting baptized over and over again -- they can't be sure they're "saved," even after "accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" more than once. They will never know for certain until they die and wake up in heaven or hell. OSAS results from the error of believing that Christianity is based on the Bible (it isn't) and that every individual will be led to "all truth" in interpreting the biblical text -- that is, it results from Sola Scriptura and private interpretation. It is one of the most dangerous doctrines to come out of the mind of Martin Luther in the 16th century --it puts people's souls at risk to be told that sin has no consequences -- that belief trumps behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonle Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 What denominations do you know of (besides Baptists) that practice multiple Baptisms? In my denom we don't even re-baptise people who were Baptised in other Christian Churches (Mormonism and JW excepted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 I think of it this way OSAS is true, but it's only true when one has reached the point where sanctifying grace permanently resides in one's soul. When a person has reached the point of no return of complete submission to the will of God in their life they are saved and there is no un-saving them, unless they apostasize and completely reject Christianity. The only point of no return is death. No one , not even a living Saint has santifying grace permanently in their soul. OSAS is only possible if you die immediately after Baptism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 ""Belief" is the only requirement for heaven." Thanks for the explanation Likos. In that case: That's just silly! Even Satan would be saved than, because he believes! In fact, he even was submissive at one point! Hahahahahahaha. That blows OSAS out of the water! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 yes, i'm also interested....i've never heard of multiple baptisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonle Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 On second thought, OSAS has to be false, because there is no way a sane Christian can really believe in it without some heavy qualifications. And if you have to qualify it by giving examples of when it doesn't apply it isn't OSAS---and no proponent of it that I've read, excepting Luther (maybe), is really prepared to say that there is no such thing as a Hell worthy sin. Plus I've seen the turmoil people go through after being convinced that if they committed a major sin after being saved that were never believers in the first place, so I suppose taht to believe in OSAS you'd have to believe a.) that there is no such thing as a sinning Christian or b.) that rather than being a Christian causing you to be held to ahigher standard, it causes God to suspend all the rules for you (rape, murder, molest kids, it doesn't matter you're saved!). And I'm sure we're in agreeance that neither of those things are true, so there I've officially decreed that OSAS is non-sense now no one has any excuse for believing it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonle Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 I too would like to hear more of these multiple baptisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 i was checking out my posts, and forgot i requested some info here, so... BUMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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