ReformationNow Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Matthew 10:33 "But whosoever shall deny me before me, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Okay, this is a big issue among Protestants. In the OSAS group, they say that a person who does so was never saved. On the other side, you have 2 groups. Those who believe that the man loses his salvation and can never be saved again; and those who believe he loses his salvation, but can get it back. What say ye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Peace be with you ReformationNow. As Catholics, we say that our salvation must be "worked out in fear and trembling", like the apostle Paul. OSAS (once saved always saved for those unfamiliar) is not Biblical. It's just not. The popular short answer when a Catholic is asked whether he/she is saved or not is, "Of course I'm saved, I'm currently being saved, and I hope to be saved." The Church teaches that salvation is a lifelong process, and we are not "saved" until we are in heaven. I'm sure many people here will be able to elaborate on any of the points you wish. haha God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 (edited) Thank you for coming here and asking what we believe, instead of listening to the rumor mongers. I hope that our dialog can bring us both closer to Christ. Now, OSAS.... The bible does not contradict itself... men's interpretations can be wrong. OSAS is one of the wrong interpretations. For OSAS to be true, then the bible would contradict itself. The bible is the inspired written works of God... Does God contradict Himself? NO. So the verses used to back up OSAS must mean something else. As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not. Consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21). As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13) St. Matt 10:22 You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. St. Matt 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. Jesus says that we must persevere to the end to be saved. So OSAS cannot be true. We can slip and fall after starting our walk toward the Lord... As we see in the following verses... St. Matt. 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it, and the evil one comes and steals away what was sown in his heart. 20 The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. 21 But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away. 22 The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit. 23 But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold." Jesus points out that some will hear the word and even take it into their hearts (getting saved), and yet still fall away. So, Once Saved Always Saved, cannot be true. Also, no where in history do we see "Once saved always saved" before the 1600's. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk www.MoralTruth.com Edited July 9, 2003 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodsThespianChic Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Paul was saved even after his denial of Christ... ...so wouldn't we all be saved if we were truely sorry for denying him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 God will forgive anything if we're sorry for it. And if we're not sorry for mortal sin, then he won't forgive us for that, even if we've been "saved" in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Just look at the phrase "Once Saved, Always Saved". it means the effect of the action is completed. If we were in a burning house, being saved would be getting out and away. We are not saved if we are still walking through the house, even if a fireman is helping us. Catholics do not believe we are saved until we are in heaven. We may be in the process of being saved. We may know the fireman will neve leave us. We may know the fireman will drag us out if we ask him too. But we also know that as long as we are in the house, if we deny the aid of the fireman and seperate ourselves from him, we can perish before we make it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 The Bible talks about salvation in the past, present, and future tense. So it is not a one-time thing, but a process. Past Event (I have been saved) Rom 8:24 Eph 2:5, 8 2 Tim 1:9 Tit 3:5 Present Process (I am being saved) Phil 2:12 1 Pet 1:9 Future Event (I will be saved) Mt 10:22 Mt 24:13 Mk 8:3-5 Act 15:11 Rom 5:9-10 Rom 13:11 1 Cor 3:15 1 Cor 5:5 Heb 9:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 When you are Baptised the stain of original sin and any other sin you have committed is removed. You are saved at that point. If you died right then you would go immediately to heaven. However most people do NOT die with 5 minutes of Baptism. All sin after that point stains your soul. Some sins (called venial or lesser sins) strain your relationship with God and lessens the grace present in your soul. Some sins (we call them mortal) break your relationship with God and remove the grace from your soul. If you read the parable of the prodigal son you see we can always return to God and his grace. Sorrow, repentance, and return to grace are always possible thru Confession. To say this is not possible is to deny Scripture. One of thre great faults of protestantism is to take a quote out of context and history to stand alone. Gospels and Epistles are entire documents not to be chopped up line by line, that is a modern convention simply to help the reader. OSAS was dealt with in the early years of the Church when people who had recanted their faith under tortured wanted to rejoin the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodsThespianChic Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 What is OSAS? And jisJas, nice metaphor. It makes things a little more clear. Not that I didn't already kinda get it...but you know what I mean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 OSAS means "Once Saved Always Saved." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 To elaborate... Once saved always saved believers think that once you accept Jesus into your heart and say with your mouth that you beleive, then you are saved. At that point there is nothing they could do that would cause them to go to hell (or so they think anyway). Okay, I could dig OSAS if their phylosophy was such that what they meant to say was as long as you CONTINUE to accept Jesus into your hear and say that you believe in him then you are saved. Because then what that means is even if you fall, you will be saved because you will have repented (because you still accpet Jesus, etc.) which is true. But then it wouldn't really be properly termed once saved always saved, because if you fall and do NOT repent, you will not be saved. Maybe it's just a bad term, but what Protestants believe maybe is closer to what we believe. Is there any OSAS's out there that could explain the phylo a little better? I mean, it could be like a Protestant group wondering what the heck the we believe just by trying to disect a "Catholic" term. Maybe OSAS is really more closely related to what Catholics believe. That is, it is a process of being saved. Even though it is termed OSAS, it could mean more or less the same thing - they might have named it differently just so that it wasn't thought of as "Catholic". Okay, I'm givin them the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty. Let's hear the meaning from a real OSAS believer. Chau. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Ironmonk, thanks for posting the reference to Romans 11:22. There is also 2 Peter 3:17 "You are forewarned, brothers. Be on guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy" OSAS is also known as "eternal security". I posted a hypothetical question in another forum. Feel free to take a look: http://www.cycleforums.com/forums/showthre...10&pagenumber=4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 OSAS is not biblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theistgal Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 (edited) Maybe the confusion is over the timing. We can't be absolutely sure we are saved until we die and are no longer in danger of committing any sins. Think of it this way - you are engaged to be married. You are both as sure as sure can be that this is THE ONE and it will last a lifetime. But - you cannot be 100% sure that you will be married until you actually go through the ceremony. It's always *possible* that one of you will get cold feet, or meet Tom Cruise or something completely unforeseen. In the same way, we are "engaged" to spend eternity with Christ Jesus, and we love Him so much that we want to believe that we are already there! But until the moment when we die and He welcomes us, finally and forever into the Kingdom, we can't be 100% sure that we're saved. It's always *possible* that you might choose, of your own free will, to leave Him ... not a happy thought, but as long as we are alive and free to sin, that is a possibility. As with comedy, timing is everything. B) Edited July 10, 2003 by theistgal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 theist I really like how you explained that.!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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