Withholding Sacraments

[StMichael]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Oct 5 2004, 05:19 PM'] The RCIA leader, when finding out that I already had the knowledge of what would have been given in this program, I was asked to stay in for the purpose of Catholic community only. To experience Catholic Community and then when I'm ready for the next steps, to let them know.


Perhaps you do not understand this situation well enough to comprehend that the sacramant [b]was/is[/b] withheld from me.

It is preferable for Canidates to go through the same rites as the Catechumens, but it is not required. [/quote]
The both of you seem to think you are under some attack, so calm down.

And stop speaking to me like I am the source of your problem.

The source of your problem is that your RCIA team failed to explain to you how this works.

You could be a biblical scholar, but you need to partake in RCIA.

You must go through ALL the church Rites before you can receive anything.

So I do not know where you got this notion you are being denied anything.

And in my diocese you wouldn't be able to confess until Holy Saturday 2005.

So call your parish, tell'em you need info and that your team leader is AWOL 10 weeks at a time.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Thank you, Cappie.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

St. Michael:


[quote name='cappie' date='Oct 5 2004, 07:22 PM'] This whole discussion is quite exraordinary.

If someone is baptised as a Catholic but is brought up is another denomination but seeks to complete their initiation in the Catholic Church, then after some general teaching tailored to the maturity and overall knowledge of the person, then that persons completion of the sacraments of iniation  should not be delayed. At least that is the position in my diocese in Australia.

I am still amazed that whilst the RCIA is an excellent resource and should be followed where possible  in my opinion as a priest who has made use of it extensively over the past 21 years it is not the 10 Commandments nor is it infallible [/quote]

Edited October 5, 2004 by Mrs. Bro. Adam

[cmotherofpirl]

Amen Father Cappie!!

RCIA is not a one -size -fits all straight jacket of rules.

Go thee to a Church and go to confession already.

[Brother Adam]

As it seems, the priest has spoken. Thank you Father. You are always a voice of reason and compassion.

[StMichael]

[quote name='cappie' date='Oct 5 2004, 05:22 PM'] This whole discussion is quite exraordinary.

If someone is baptised as a Catholic but is brought up is another denomination but seeks to complete their initiation in the Catholic Church, then after some general teaching tailored to the maturity and overall knowledge of the person, then that persons completion of the sacraments of iniation should not be delayed. At least that is the position in my diocese in Australia.

I am still amazed that whilst the RCIA is an excellent resource and should be followed where possible in my opinion as a priest who has made use of it extensively over the past 21 years it is not the 10 Commandments nor is it infallible [/quote]
Father, my role in this conversation was to help and not put into question the process that the Bishops in the US felt was the way to go.

I can not answer to elsewhere and I would expect that same respect here.

We live in a McDonald's society and I guess the American Bishops want to prevent a fast food mentality regarding becoming a full Catholic.

From what I understand, pre-Vatican II, it took forever and was done one-on-one with clergy for over a year.

Regardless, the candidate needs to contact her RCIA team leader.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Yes, it took a full year to go from an unbaptized pagan to a full Catholic. In fact, the catachumen were not allowed in the mass during the consencration until the full process was complete.

However, it is not a "Burger King" mentality anyone is trying to push. Different people have different needs. The mentality I would try to push is not one laden with rules, but one where each person does what they need to in order to draw nearer to the Lord.

As it is, there are even more facts that you are not fully aquinted with. However, I appreciate your opinion.

[StMichael]

Maybe this can help shed some light. It comes from CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

-----
The sacrament of forgiveness

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."[47]

1447 Over the centuries the concrete form in which the Church has exercised this power received from the Lord has varied considerably. During the first centuries the reconciliation of Christians who had committed particularly grave sins after their Baptism (for example, idolatry, murder, or adultery) was tied to a very rigorous discipline, according to which penitents had to do public penance for their sins, often for years, before receiving reconciliation. To this "order of penitents" (which concerned only certain grave sins), one was only rarely admitted and in certain regions only once in a lifetime. During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the "private" practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day.

1448 Beneath the changes in discipline and celebration that this sacrament has undergone over the centuries, the same fundamental structure is to be discerned. It comprises two equally essential elements: on the one hand, the acts of the man who undergoes conversion through the action of the Holy Spirit: namely, contrition, confession, and satisfaction; on the other, God's action through the intervention of the Church. The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ and determines the manner of satisfaction, also prays for the sinner and does penance with him. Thus the sinner is healed and re-established in ecclesial communion.

-----

So therefore, the Bishops of the US have instituted a program to bring you into full communion with the Church.

[Brother Adam]

Good passages. I just re-read 1440-1470 last night. Something we should all go over from time to time.

On the other hand it hardly proves your point. We already know there is an RCIA process. I was in the RCIA process earlier this year for a few months until making an act of faith and recieving my first confession.

Being born a Catholic and baptized Catholic, being fully instructed (both by self and with a teacher) on the meaning on the sacrament, and given an already painfully long period of time in her opinion away from the sacrament, there is, as Father Cappie has presented, no insurmountable reason to keep her from an act of faith and the sacrament if it is what she believes is the right step for her at this time.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there should be no RCIA program. While I have serious issues with some of the actions of some the US Bishops, they are indeed in charge of us and we most often have no reason to disobey them (and I seriously object to the 90%+ of current Catholics who disobey decisions handed down by our Bishops.

[StMichael]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 5 2004, 06:27 PM'] Good passages. I just re-read 1440-1470 last night. Something we should all go over from time to time.

On the other hand it hardly proves your point. We already know there is an RCIA process. I was in the RCIA process earlier this year for a few months until making an act of faith and recieving my first confession.

Being born a Catholic and baptized Catholic, being fully instructed (both by self and with a teacher) on the meaning on the sacrament, and given an already painfully long period of time in her opinion away from the sacrament, there is, as Father Cappie has presented, no insurmountable reason to keep her from an act of faith and the sacrament if it is what she believes is the right step for her at this time.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there should be no RCIA program. While I have serious issues with some of the actions of some the US Bishops, they are indeed in charge of us and we most often have no reason to disobey them (and I seriously object to the 90%+ of current Catholics who disobey decisions handed down by our Bishops. [/quote]
Brother Adam, OK, I consulted with someone who knows far better than I.

According to Canon Law, this is not verbatim. a baptised person can be turned away from confession because they are not READY to confess. Meaning they do not understand the sacrament well enough to give a confession.

Thus why the RCIA program is necessary for the candidate to give a proper confession as they grow in understanding of the Church.

I hope that helps.

[Brother Adam]

Right. The key is who makes the decision on being ready to confess? I dont' believe that decision should be in the hands of her brand new teacher or her layman RCIA director who is hardly around anyway. The parish priest has a school to run and is head of over 500 families. He hardly has time beyond short phone calls to know how ready Teresa is.

Teresa humbly put up with a great deal, saying "okay, I'll wait and try things your way, over and over, and over again. If I could sit down and share with you all the details, it would probably be enough to make you, as it has several other Catholics go "Geez, if that was me, I'd find a new parish". But thus far we have desired to remain as loyal as possible to one parish, and we love Fr. Don, he is a wonderful man of God.

The option being considered here is to sit down with another parish priest in our diocese who deals only with confessions and have a long discussion with him regarding Teresa being ready or not. As much studing as I have done (3 bookshelves full of orthodox Catholic material) and as much prayer as I have done, I can say this much: If Teresa was recieved fully into the Church today, I have no doubt she would be a faithful Catholic from today until the day she dies. Should she make that move today or tomorrow? I'm not positive myself, but alas, it isn't for me to decide.

And thus, as I begin the last two years of my B.A. degree at Franciscan University, I believe we need to make changes to the RCIA program in some areas. I have seen some outstanding RCIA programs that are great the way they are, and some like Teresa, being run by undereducated catechists, and lumping everyone, those without a clue of what it means to be Catholic to those who are advanced in the knowledge of the faith such as Teresa in one group. These groups definitely need help. I would like to eventually write new material for forming leaders in RCIA and new educational material for RCIA, for both catechumen and canadiates.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

[jasJis]

Bro. & Mrs.,
Stay faithful to your parish and go to another parish (Cathedral or Shrine) where a priest is hearing confession on a regular basis. Call ahead and find out when the slow times are. Go and meet with the priest, tell him everything. Be willing to be disappointed about what YOU want. Basically, you need to put a little effort into finding the personal attention of the Church while not overburdening your parish priest with your requirements. When I feel the need to go to Reconcilliation, I look on-line and find somewhere I can go. Also, since I travel alot at times and have a habit of stopping at Catholic Churches during the day, I come accross the opportunity for Confession regularly. God helps those who help themselves. It can all work out. Trust God and work with Him.

[Sinner]

I do not know any answers here. I do know several folks who have moved on due to time issues associated with Her. I say...... talk to others. But whatever happens, whether sooner or later.... just stay the course. Considering the payoff, I gotta say it is worth it. If ya choose to stay where you are at and have to wait longer......give it up as an opportunity to share in pain with Our Lord.
God Bless.....

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='StMichael' date='Oct 5 2004, 08:11 PM'] Maybe this can help shed some light. It comes from CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

-----
The sacrament of forgiveness

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."[47]

1447 Over the centuries the concrete form in which the Church has exercised this power received from the Lord has varied considerably. During the first centuries the reconciliation of Christians who had committed particularly grave sins after their Baptism (for example, idolatry, murder, or adultery) was tied to a very rigorous discipline, according to which penitents had to do public penance for their sins, often for years, before receiving reconciliation. To this "order of penitents" (which concerned only certain grave sins), one was only rarely admitted and in certain regions only once in a lifetime. During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the "private" practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day.

1448 Beneath the changes in discipline and celebration that this sacrament has undergone over the centuries, the same fundamental structure is to be discerned. It comprises two equally essential elements: on the one hand, the acts of the man who undergoes conversion through the action of the Holy Spirit: namely, contrition, confession, and satisfaction; on the other, God's action through the intervention of the Church. The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ and determines the manner of satisfaction, also prays for the sinner and does penance with him. Thus the sinner is healed and re-established in ecclesial communion.

-----

So therefore, the Bishops of the US have instituted a program to bring you into full communion with the Church. [/quote]
Because they (RCIA program) has no advanced material to 'teach' me with, I've been sitting down with the new teacher and been reading the [b]Catechism[/b] and have already read the [b]entire[/b] section on the sacrament of Reconciliation, as I have the Blessed Eucharist.


If there is nothing to compare me to when it comes to me being ready for any sacramant, the question that needs to be asked is, when expressed a deep desire, and a definite understanding of the sacramant, under what grounds should one be held from any sacrament, the sacrament of Reconciliation to be more specific.


If it's an issue of 'not being ready' due to 'not understanding', how can one know if they have no contact with me because of the way things are run? I've only talked to the RCIA director twice, both times for him to tell me why they wanted me to reamain in the program, and neither was for understanding of any sacrament or basic Catholic doctrine or teaching.


I've yielded to them, not because I wanted, but because it was the right thing to do. Am the most humblest person in the world? No, but we can all use to be more humble. Have I gone against any rules set out? No, and when told to wait, I've waited.

There has to be something said about the program, though. It does not [b]always[/b] know what is best for each Canidate in the program, and that seems to be overlooked. Just like humans, the program is fallible.

Am I ready for the sacramant of Reconciliation? You bet your sweet bippy. Do I understand what it means and what the process of the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the act of Confession? You bet your sweet bippy again.

What's holding me back from going to another priest in another parish? Respect for those in authority over me.

[Theoketos]

St. Micahel chill