Enda Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I'm trying to find me a Catholic subculture that I can claim to be a part of. I don't like charsamatics, not every emotion I get comes from God, and their Masses are too touchey-feely for me. I also don't agree with the ideaology behind tradtionism, and I do't like how they say Mass in latin, either. The worlds changed guys, deal with it. What I do like is Fr. Robert Spizter book [i]Healing the Culture[/i], and George Weigel's new book [i]Letters to a Young Catholic[/i]. After reading the New Oxford Reveiw's attack on Weigel for wanting to redefine "freedom" I'm tempted to call myself a "neoconservtive", but that might be more becasue I agree with Weigel's poltics more than his sipirtuality, and there's always the fact that I'm unaware neoconservites have a sterotypical Mass. So, my question is, can I call myself a neoconservitive as a Catholic subculture and not just my political views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 To me, "neoconservative" is a word that dissident Catholic traditionalists use (another example would be "neo-Catholic) to describe Catholics who are loyal to the Magisterium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Try "faithful Catholic" that is the hardest one of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 [quote]...and I do't like how they say Mass in latin, either. The worlds changed guys, deal with it.[/quote] I am not a trad as most of you know thus my disclaimer is complete. This is a poor understanding of Vactiain II. The Mass is still allowed to be prayed in Latin, as a matter of fact the Vatican said Latin should be given a higher place and deference to the local langague when praying the Mass. So the Trads is prefering the Latin Mass have nothing to deal with in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Who said anything about Latin not being allowed after Vatican II? I sure didn't. All I said was that I don't think it has any use in the modern world. I don't think anyone here really understands what I'm looking for. Like motherofpearl who said "try faithful Catholic" as if all faithful Catholics agree on everything and have exactly the same viewpoints on everything. I think I might need someone more educated on this like Raphel or St. Michael. Thanks for trying to help though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Oct 4 2004, 03:09 PM'] To me, "neoconservative" is a word that dissident Catholic traditionalists use (another example would be "neo-Catholic) to describe Catholics who are loyal to the Magisterium. [/quote] That made absoutely no sense to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 they're gonna tell you the same thing, splitting up into lil groups isnt a Catholic thing to do. you'd be comfortable in a Novus Ordo Church which uses the vernacular, to an extent. though you will inevitably find some ppl there who are too liberal for you. just avoid the folk masses and the charismatic masses, you don't seem to be too fond of them it seems (which is perfectly alright) you don't seem to be at a point where you'd like an indult tridentine mass (though i highly recomend it, very symbolic and beautiful). those people aren't "traditionalist" the way you think, cuz they're faithful to the pope. but a church that uses the Novus Ordo is where you'd be comfortable, though there you will still be called to do the Lord's Work by promoting a higher adherence to Orthodoxy than is already existant there. is that what you're looking for? i'm sorry if you were looking for the best Catholic cliche for you... that's not what it's about. you're gonna haveta work to help the everyday Catholic you meet out there more on fire for the faith and for orthodoxy, because you're not gonna be able to just find a club (except at phatmass) who tries to be orthodox at every single point. hmm... maybe you're Catholic subculture... is... the PhatMass Catholic subculture. we're orthodox, but we're not uptight (we hip hop it up yo), we tend to attend Novus Ordo Missaes, mostly in the vernacular... though alot of us enjoy a good latin mass once in a while. we have varying political dimensions... Iacobus is kinda democrat except for the big moral important issues, and i'm kinda republican, compassionate conservative type dealio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 What Dave was saying is the term "neo con" is the term used by Trads when discribing Catholics who are loyal to the Church as it is today. [quote]Like motherofpearl who said "try faithful Catholic" as if all faithful Catholics agree on everything and have exactly the same viewpoints on everything.[/quote] You are mistaken. Not all catholics agree but all Catholics (faithful and orthodox (sp?)) agree on matters which the Church has taught. The Catholic Church is of One Body and all her members agree on all issues of import. Issues that the Church does not have a teaching on, such as evolution (beyond God was behind it) Catholics are free to belive as they choice, in so far as they remain within the specturm of Catholic doctrine and dogma as well as, and most importantly as it is the root of the doctrine and dogma, the Catholic interepations of the Holy Writings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Iacobus's point was actually that not only is Latin allowed in today's Church, but it is still the MAIN LANGUAGE of the Church. It has a place in today's world: it's place is that the Church produces its documents in Latin (because it's not gonna go favoring one vernacular language over the other)... it's place is that it is a langauge set aside as sacred by the Church in the finest tradition of Judeo-Christian Religion (usedta have vernacular- aramaic, sacred- hebrew and such...) Latin will always have an important place in a universal Church that spreads across so many different cultures and languages, and it will always have a place in a Church that came from Judaism, because a sacred langauge set aside for the main prayers of our Religion is something that helps promote a sacred and mysterious nature to those prayers and sacred rituals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Aluigi' date='Oct 4 2004, 11:35 PM']they're gonna tell you the same thing, splitting up into lil groups isnt a Catholic thing to do.[/quote] I think you dead wrong. That's why we have charasmatics and tradtionlists (two very differnt movements) of which neither is nessacrily an unorthodox movement and I never said either of them were (although for some strange reason people seem to think I did). Notice how we have Fransican, Dommincans, and the like. We do divde into groups. Face it. [quote]you'd be comfortable in a Novus Ordo Church which uses the vernacular, to an extent. though you will inevitably find some ppl there who are too liberal for you. just avoid the folk masses and the charismatic masses, you don't seem to be too fond of them it seems (which is perfectly alright) you don't seem to be at a point where you'd like an indult tridentine mass (though i highly recomend it, very symbolic and beautiful). those people aren't "traditionalist" the way you think, cuz they're faithful to the pope. but a church that uses the Novus Ordo is where you'd be comfortable, though there you will still be called to do the Lord's Work by promoting a higher adherence to Orthodoxy than is already existant there.[/quote] I am quite aware of the differences in the liturgies and the people who attend them. I also am aware that the Trindine Mass is still allowed to be said as long as you have a indult from the Pope, or are ordained in the Fraternal Society of St. Peter, in which case your indult is automatic. I am more educated on the liturgy than you think. [quote]is that what you're looking for? i'm sorry if you were looking for the best Catholic cliche for you... that's not what it's about. you're gonna haveta work to help the everyday Catholic you meet out there more on fire for the faith and for orthodoxy, because you're not gonna be able to just find a club (except at phatmass) who tries to be orthodox at every single point.[/quote] Perhaps this is the problem with most phatmassers out there. You seem to think I'm looking for a group that is perfectly orothodox. Of course that's never going to happen, every group can be taken to an extreme. My point here is that I neither agree with the philosophy or liturgy of [i]orthodox[/i] tradtionalism or charsmaticism. One doesn't regonzie the need for change, and the other wants me to think every emotion, as long as it still adheres to Church teaching, is God's calling which I know is simply not true either. [quote]hmm... maybe you're Catholic subculture... is... the PhatMass Catholic subculture. we're orthodox, but we're not uptight (we hip hop it up yo), we tend to attend Novus Ordo Missaes, mostly in the vernacular... though alot of us enjoy a good latin mass once in a while. we have varying political dimensions... Iacobus is kinda democrat except for the big moral important issues, and i'm kinda republican, compassionate conservative type dealio.[/quote] Phatmass has no philosophy and is not a really a movement. Edited October 5, 2004 by Enda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 :ph34r: i'm just trying to help... what's with the attitude? yeah there are groups i guess.. i just don't like how they tend to seperate like water and oil.. that's not the way we're sposeta act. i apologize if my attempt to explain what i had no idea whether or not you knew sounded condescending. i honestly did not intend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 [quote name='Enda' date='Oct 4 2004, 11:25 PM'] Who said anything about Latin not being allowed after Vatican II? I sure didn't. All I said was that I don't think it has any use in the modern world. I don't think anyone here really understands what I'm looking for. Like motherofpearl who said "try faithful Catholic" as if all faithful Catholics agree on everything and have exactly the same viewpoints on everything. I think I might need someone more educated on this like Raphel or St. Michael. Thanks for trying to help though. [/quote] All faithful Catholic accept the teachings the teachings of the Magisterium. If they don't, then they don't qualify as "faithful" now do they. Even a simple Church Militant like me can understand that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 I never intended to sound condesending either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 ok... man it seems like everytime i talk to you it's like... we don't really disagree... we just kinda clash or something i can't figure it out... but sorry... i gave it my best shot so i guess i can't really help you out now. but i do understand what you're lookin for to an extent. i think PhatMass somewhat qualifies as a movement, the only problem is it isn't real life go to your local church and join the PhatMass chapter there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 [quote name='Enda' date='Oct 4 2004, 10:00 PM'] I think you dead wrong. That's why we have charasmatics and tradtionlists (two very differnt movements) of which neither is nessacrily an unorthodox movement and I never said either of them were (although for some strange reason people seem to think I did). Notice how we have Fransican, Dommincans, and the like. We do divde into groups. Face it. [/quote] [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=catholic"]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=catholic[/url] [quote]\Cath"o*lic\ (k[a^]th"[-o]*[i^]k), a. [L. catholicus, Gr. kaqoliko`s, universal, general; kata` down, wholly + "o`los whole, probably akin to E. solid: cf. F. catholique.] 1. Universal or general; as, the catholic faith.[/quote] [quote]# Catholic 1. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church. 2. Of or relating to the universal Christian church. 3. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church. 4. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient [b]undivided[/b] church.[/quote] The Church is universal, or catholic. There are many different groups (such as Fransiscans, Dominicans, etc), but we are all Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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