ONCE AND FOR ALL, WHAT IS THE DEAL?!

[mulls]

can we please (well, not we, but all of you) come to a consensus about this, if possible?

i read church teaching that says people can be saved outside the church, and then i read church teaching that says you can't. like the following, posted by hartfordwhalers:


[quote]Lateran Council IV: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." No exceptions are given for those who desire to be a part of the Church.

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." EVERY creature ABSOLUTELY must be subject to the Pope. Again, there are no exceptions given here in this second INFALLIBLE pronouncement.

Council of Florence: "[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart 'into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, [b]no one, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church[/b]." This is by far the most convincing and clear definition given by the Church. Here we can see the AUTHENTIC development of doctrine, which was first seen at Lateran IV, then by Pope Boniface VIII and now at Florence, the most clear and definitive pronouncement is defined. No one EVEN IF HE DIES FOR CHRIST can be saved unless he is Catholic. This is so very clear. It says the same at the beginning: no one, unless before the end of life he is joined to the Church, can be saved. It does not matter how much he desires to be in the Church. If he does not come to the Flock before death, he has no hope.[/quote]



so is there a firm ruling on this? or does church teaching contradict itself?



ill be gone all weekend at a retreat, i hope to have some solid answers from y'all when i return peace

Edited October 1, 2004 by mulls

[littleflower+JMJ]

one more time...the Church does NOT contradict Herself.

what (or how much) church teaching have you read besides what hart as posted?

[dairygirl4u2c]

I say it's debateble. Some people insist to say it's not possible for nons is only being stubborn. But there are arguments that could be said against it. This whole catechism of the CC not being infallible throws us all off. Then this whole not being able to define the ordinary magisterium beyond theory and in practice doesn't help either. We cant say what the pope is thinking or whatever.

Really, it depends on who you ask. If they could say non's can not be saved ironically though I think I'd have one less factor against the Catholic Church.

I've been meaning to test the development claimed here and apply it other areas where people insist development can not occur. I think doing this is the only way to grind out whether or not this is legitimate to think nons can be saved or if the old thought on the matter is still the case.

Also Dom does a good job presenting his case. JasJis has a case, but it seems like it needs tested beyond basically just cause we can technically play with words and ideas. I shouldn't say that but we should test this notion out:

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=19237&st=100"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=19237&st=100[/url]

Edited October 1, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Apotheoun]

A man who [i]knows[/i] that the Church has been founded as necessary for salvation, and who then fails to either enter it, or if already in it, fails to remain in it, is by his own action damned.

[homeschoolmom]

You'll notice that Hartfordwhalers doesn't "rep the Church." Please keep this in mind when reading his posts... Thank you.

[Hananiah]

Mulls, here's the deal:

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, which is one and the same thing with the mystical body of Christ. Baptism makes one a member of the Catholic Church. Being guilty of heresy or schism makes one no longer a member of the Catholic Church. If a Protestant or Eastern Orthodox person believes heresies or commits schismatic acts out of invincible ignorance, then he will not be culpable, and thus will remain in the Catholic Church and can still be saved so long as he does not commit any other mortal sins. So, Catholics can hope that some people who are not formal members of the Catholic Church are saved. However, we have no grounds for confidence. Given that information about Catholicism is so easy to obtain, that the Bible contradicts Protestantism perspicuously, and that the early Church Fathers were Catholic, it is highly unlikely that significant numbers of people in America above the age of 7 are invincibly ignorant. And for the sake of ministry/evangelism, I think it best to assume that none of them are. Catholics need the evangelical zeal which comes from the knowledge that every conversion means one less soul in the lake of fire for all eternity, and one more soul in the bliss of heaven. This is why Fundamentalist Protestants are so fervent in their prosyletizing. This is also why Catholic traditionalist Gerry Matatics constantly criss-crosses the country on (monetarily) unprofitable speaking tours. Catholics are too complacent, and we don't evangelize nearly enough, and this is in large part due to the death-by-a-thousand-qualifications which theologians have dealt to the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Edited October 1, 2004 by Hananiah

[Theoketos]

Just look at this way...

If any one gets to heaven it because Jesus saved them through the Church.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 1 2004, 11:47 AM'] Just look at this way...

If any one gets to heaven it because Jesus saved them through the Church. [/quote]
I agree.

[IcePrincessKRS]

From the Reference Room: (read up my friend )

[b]Salvation Outside the Church[/b]
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1203"]--Ignorance: Invincible and Vincible[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/How_to_Become_a_Catholic.asp"]--How to Become a Catholic[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=964"]--Is There Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY2.TXT"]--Leonard Freeney on "No Salvation Outside the Church"[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT"]--Tragic Errors of Leonard Freeney[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"]--No Salvation Outside the Church[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4084"]--Salvation Outside the Church[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CHURCHSA.TXT"]--Which Church Saves?[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3447"]--The Necessity of Being Catholic[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=674"]--Is There Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4085"]--Can Outsiders Be Insiders?[/url]
[url="http://cuf.org/member/withoutchurch.pdf"]--Without the Church There Is No Salvation[/url]
[url="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/salvation.html"]--Who Will Be Saved?[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic-defense.com/no_salvation.htm"]--No Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/SPIRCATH.htm#10"]--The Church Necessary for Salvation[/url]
[url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/critic2.html"]--"Mr. Critic" and Salvation Outside the Catholic Church[/url]
[url="http://www.angeltowns3.com/members/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"]--Against Feeneyism[/url]
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/debate9.htm"]--The Unam Sanctam "Problem" Resolved[/url]
[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.5/coverstory.html"]--Can Outsiders Be Insiders?[/url]
[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3517/nosalv.htm"]--No Salvation Outside The Church?[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea3.asp"]--The Church’s Position on Salvation outside the Church Is Unchanged [/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302fea3.asp"]--Salvation for Non-Christians Explained Sola Scriptura[/url]

[IcePrincessKRS]

Courtesy of jasJis and Apotheoun from a thread I closed (due to mulitple threads on the same topic):

jasJis:
[quote]
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"


846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337


848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338[/quote]

Apotheoun:
[quote]The following text is from the schema on the Church from the First Vatican Council:

"Furthermore, it is a dogma of faith that no one can be saved outside the Church. Nevertheless, those who are invincibly ignorant of Christ and the Church are not to be judged worthy of eternal punishment because of this ignorance. For they are innocent in the eyes of the Lord of any fault in this matter. God wishes all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth; and if one does what he can, God does not withhold the grace for him to obtain eternal life. But no one obtains eternal life if he dies separated from the unity of faith or from communion with the Church through his own fault." [Vatican I, Schema on the Church of Christ (chapter 7), presented to the Fathers of the council on 24 April 1870] [/quote]

[jasJis]

mulls,
The better question to ask yourself is: "Am I embracing God with all my heart, all my mind, all my strength, and all my soul?".

It is possible that some outside the normal temperal limits of the Catholic Church can answer Yes to that question. If that answer is Yes, then they are responding to Grace and may be saved by the Mercy of God, and are members of the Catholic Church in Spirit, as Christ is the Church, Body and Soul, and none can respond to Grace without Christ.

The caution is that it is easier to respond to Grace as a member of the Catholic Church because ther are more opportunities to receive Grace that aids us. The flip side of that is that there are more opportunities for rejecting Grace, and that's what drove ICTHUS and Martin Luther quite mad. The fall back is that God is perfectly Just, and perfectly Merciful and the same time. We only have to ask for God's aid and we receive it because Jesus merited it for us with His self-sacrifice for our sins. God's forgiveness isn't a one-time "I'm Saved!" deal, but an eternal covenant He makes with His children, you and me.

[Brother Adam]

lol. I love it. This is why we can't define and teach dogma as absolute truth and the matter is left up to the Church. Because even Catholics have differing opinions, and left up to ourselves we are on the verge of Protestantism.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I may be wrong, but I thought the question was more did the Catholic Church contradict itself. But I think I must have been wrong. Either way you'll realize that it's possible to ask whether or not contradicted itself, and you'll realize that it's debatable whether or not nons can be saved. Or you'll just realize that it's debatable whether or not they can be.

Edited October 1, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[azaelia]

I'm no Church Scholar, and I don't claim to have an extensive knowledge of the Cathechism, but it has always been my understanding that if you know the Truth and reject it outright, you are in danger of damnation. Many outside the Church don't know the Truth within the Catholic Church, so they are not neccesarily damned. That's in the simplest terms however, and I'm sure someone else can delve much deeper than I can.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Oct 1 2004, 01:51 PM'] I agree. [/quote]
Todd your my dawg!

I am honored!