Voting For Kerry

[Hananiah]

My mistake, it's a guy dressed like the Pope:

“There is a devil, a Don Quixote and a Pope who has one foot sheathed in a white monogrammed slipper resting on a stone skull. The initiates are led into the room one at a time. And once an initiate is inside, the Bonesmen shriek at him. Finally, the Bonesman is shoved to his knees in front of Don Quixote as the shrieking crowd falls silent. And Don Quixote lifts his sword and taps the Bonesman on his left shoulder and says, ‘By order of our order, I dub thee knight of Euloga.’

[Christ's Knight]

So... now, Everyone who reads this post knows that Kerry Is for the MURDER of innocent babies. Despite all his flip flops on all the issues, he voted to make MURDER a legal practice. You (who read this) would now be guilty of a mortal sin if you cast a vote for Kerry! Its wrong, you now know its wrong & proceed to do it... 1, 2, 3 = Mortal Sin.

BUT lets clarify, confession is for confessing the sins we ARE sorry for committing. Not an excuse or a license to sin.

True dat to Bigjoe & ToledoJesus!

Traditional_Catholic be very careful of your accusations. Masonry is a pretty big allegation. Slander is also a sin.

[flip]

Good point knight. abortion is murder in ALL cases.

By your definition, is not Bush for murder (in certain cases), since he is for Abortion (in certain cases)?

I think that us as Catholics need to set the bar and NOT waver, and never say, "Well, it's ok to murder here but not murder there", which we are saying when we vote for bush or kerry...

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='flip' date='Oct 4 2004, 12:44 PM'] Good point knight. abortion is murder in ALL cases.

By your definition, is not Bush for murder (in certain cases), since he is for Abortion (in certain cases)?

I think that us as Catholics need to set the bar and NOT waver, and never say, "Well, it's ok to murder here but not murder there", which we are saying when we vote for bush or kerry... [/quote]
it's the lesser of two evils thing. Bush may not be perfect...well let's just say it: He's nowhere near perfect. But he hits closer to the mark than Kerry, and the only two men on Earth who have a chance to be President in January are George Bush and John Kerry. So...we have to go with the one who will be better, or should I say less worse. A vote for a third party candidate would probably be acceptable provided his views were in line with the Church...but it would also be a wasted vote as there is no chance that candidate would win the election.

[smeagol]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 2 2004, 09:05 AM'] voting for Kerry would be taciturn support of abortion. better not to vote at all, if you can not vote for Bush. Bush is the only electable candidate whose record indicates a pro-life stance. His support for the partial birth abortion ban is stellar. While he is not perfect as he does support it in cases of rape or incest, he is better than Kerry when it comes to this.
There are those who say we can't make this election about one issue. But they are wrong. The impact of the war, the economy, these things are [b]debatable[/b]. Abortion is not debatable. We have a clear moral prerogative against abortion. The war in Iraq may be a bad thing, it may not. It has only cost 1050-odd American lives. How many Americans are sacrificed on the altar of abortion each year? And do we support a candidate who though Catholic is too afraid to let his faith influence his politics, and better change the world?

If Kerry came out and outlined a social agenda that was in line with Catholic teachings, then the war would be a very decisive issue for me. However...Kerry is against his Church and he is against her teachings. I don't want him to be president. [/quote]
Bush is against the church and her teachings. but more importantly we must ask the question, who is less opposed to God ? the answer to this question is clearly Kerry. Albeit, neither one syncs to Jesus' teachings (who of us does?) but Kerry is the lesser of two evils.

war directly contradicts everything Jesus taught. while there may be some human justification for certain wars, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Iraq is not one of them. ... someone mentioned that ONLY 1050 Americans have died thus far... only!?! moreover, up to 15,000 INNOCENT Iraqi civilians have been killed as a result of the Bush administration's decision to hastily and sloppily invade and conquer Iraq. but this figure doesn't amount to anything, because i guess we subconsciously believe an innocent Iraqi life is not worth as much as an American soldier's life....

my thinking, as a Kerry supporter, is How in God's name can I vote for someone who committed such an atrocity ? not only did Bush do this, he is PROUD of it! at least Kerry is not proud of abortion, because he is personally opposed to it... ---now some of you think of this as a contradiction, but that's a lack of logic and understanding. i am personally opposed to affairs, premarital sex, drugs, and many other ills of society. HOWEVER, my personal belief has no bearing on whether or not society should allow said action. (note that i said 'allow' as in 'not punish' as opposed to 'condone' or 'support' - there IS a difference)

[toledo_jesus]

compare numbers. Iraq versus American aborted. It's clear where the greater crime is. At least Iraq was meant to do somebody some good. Abortion is self serving and wicked.

How many people [i]are[/i] there on this site who want to make excuses for being totally wrong?

Edited October 4, 2004 by toledo_jesus

[smeagol]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 4 2004, 12:52 PM'] compare numbers. Iraq versus American aborted. It's clear where the greater crime is. At least Iraq was meant to do somebody some good. Abortion is self serving and wicked.

How many people [i]are[/i] there on this site who want to make excuses for being totally wrong? [/quote]
what are the numbers ? i dont know. help inform me.

you're right, the iraqi invasion was meant to some benefit to somebody (i think EVERY action ever committed in the history of mankind was meant to benefit somebody).. a unilateral invasion as such is likewise selfserving and wicked. (at least it was meant to be selfserving although things didnt turn out that way)

abortion is likewise meant to liberate women from sexual oppression. or whatever terminology you choose. (i dont support this view but it deserves to be said)

if you think a vote for kerry is a thumbs up for abortion, why wont you concede that a vote for bush is a thumbs up for war? because neither is the case... i dont want dead babies any more than you want dead iraqis and u.s. soldiers..

How many people [i]are[/i] there on this site who want to make excuses for being totally wrong?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='smeagol' date='Oct 4 2004, 02:49 PM'] Bush is against the church and her teachings. but more importantly we must ask the question, who is less opposed to God ? the answer to this question is clearly Kerry. Albeit, neither one syncs to Jesus' teachings (who of us does?) but Kerry is the lesser of two evils. [/quote]
Bush is not against the Church teachings



[quote]war directly contradicts everything Jesus taught. while there may be some human justification for certain wars, it is becoming clearer and clearer that Iraq is not one of them. ... someone mentioned that ONLY 1050 Americans have died thus far... only!?! moreover, up to 15,000 INNOCENT Iraqi civilians have been killed as a result of the Bush administration's decision to hastily and sloppily invade and conquer Iraq. but this figure doesn't amount to anything, because i guess we subconsciously believe an innocent Iraqi life is not worth as much as an American soldier's life.... [/quote]

War does not contradict everything Jesus taught... the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and clearly states that there is such thing as a Just War - therefore it cannot contradict what Jesus taught.

The Iraqi war CANNOT LOGICALLY be used against Bush in this election because Kerry voted for it.

It was not sloppy. It was a done well, with the least amount of causalties... WHY NOT ask the Iraqi's????? Funny how they're happy for what Bush did.

Your assumtion about the subconscious is wrong... but that arguement has been brought up by the left.

[quote]my thinking, as a Kerry supporter, is How in God's name can I vote for someone who committed such an atrocity ? not only did Bush do this, he is PROUD of it! at least Kerry is not proud of abortion, because he is personally opposed to it... ---now some of you think of this as a contradiction, but that's a lack of logic and understanding. i am personally opposed to affairs, premarital sex, drugs, and many other ills of society.  HOWEVER, my personal belief has no bearing on whether or not society should allow said action. (note that i said 'allow' as in 'not punish' as opposed to 'condone' or 'support' - there IS a difference)[/quote]

Kerry fully supports abortion and is not personally oppossed to it... He is a liar - he told "people" at a Planned Parenthood rally that he fully supports abortion.

[url="http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/20/165557.shtml"]http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/20/165557.shtml[/url]


A vote for Bush is not a thumbs up for war.

Only a fool or someone who didn't know the whole story would have allowed Saddam to stay in power knowing what we know about him and the given circumstances.
[list]
[*]Sanctions upon sanctions and Saddam kept ignoring them
[*]He constantly stalled UN inspectors, if he had nothing to hide, why stall them? What could he possibly want to hide from the UN inspectors looking for WMD's? Hmmmm, it's not rocket science. A little knowledge of human nature and Saddam's history tells us that he had to be removed.
[*]The guy was almost as bad if not worse than Hitler with his human rights violations. We must stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves.
[*]The UN stated that Saddam had WMD's and that they were shipped out of Iraq, before during and after the war, from satellight evidence.
[*]Saddam could have easily prevented the war by letting the UN inspectors inspect where they wanted to go, but he didn't.
[*]The deaths are very sad, but place blame where blame is due; Saddam.
[/list]



CCC 2308
All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority [u][b]with the necessary competence and power[/b][/u], governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106


CCC 2309
The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
[list]
[*]the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
[*]all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
[*]there must be serious prospects of success;
[*]the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
[/list]

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

[b]The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.[/b]

------------------------------------




Bottom line: Bush is the only choice for a Christian to vote for if the vote is to count. There are in all reality only two people running for president; no one else has a chance to win. President Bush and Kerry.

A vote for kerry is a sign either that of not knowing the facts, or a poorly developed conscience.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[flip]

I think both candidates are ANTI CHRISTIAN.

Bush waged, wages, and supports an UNJUST war. No one on this board can tell me that the war is Just, because our CHURCH has told us that it is UNJUST

Bush supports the death penalty, something that our mother CHURCH has said is UNJUST in America.

Kerry supports abortion, with our mother CHURCH has said is INTRINSICALLY EVIL

Bush supports abortion in certain cases, which our mother CHURCH has said that in ALL CASES abortion is intrinscially EVIL. in ALL CASES, including cases of RAPE, INCEST, and HARM TO THE MOTHERS BODY. IT IS ALWAYS AN INNOCENT KILLING OF LIFE. I think technically, Bush is pro abortion in certain cases.

I think a vote for either candidate would be in support of abortion, and therefore would be considered a mortal sin to support either candidate.
Both candidates smell of elderberries. Both candidates are going aginst the CHURCH and the BODY OF CHRIST.

[cmotherofpirl]

Nope.

Kerry is a hypocrite. He claims to be Catholic and yet he is for abortion.

The Church has not condemned all war or all death penalty, it has condemned all abortion.

Edited October 4, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[flip]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 4 2004, 04:08 PM']
The Church has not condemned all war or all death penalty, it has condemned all abortion. [/quote]
The Church has condemned the war that we are currently in, the church has condemned the death penalty in america, and the church has condemned all abortion, in ALL CASES

Kerry is a hypocritical Catholic, yes.
Bush is also a hypocritical Christian for going against the Body of Christ and the Holy Spirit

[Guest Aluigi]

Ratzinger, the go-to-man when a question arises about hte faith, said that a Catholic may disagree with the Holy Father in regards to the APPLICATION of war/death penalty. we agree in doctrine, but maybe one Catholic believes that doctrine can justify the Iraqui war and another Catholic believes that doctrine doesn't justify the Iraqui war... the reason? the Church's expertice lies in matters of faith and morals, the disagreement between Catholics would not subsist in the faith or morality, but rather in specific elements of the war... i.e. was saddam a threat? should America have dealt with that threat in that way? how much of a threat was he? what exactly did the intelligence point to about him?

the Church is not going to define that Saddam Hussein was not threatening enough to go to war, because the Church is not an expert on Saddam Hussein.

[flip]

did not the Church say that this war was unjust?

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote]3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

[/quote]--Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

yes, the Holy Father opposed the war. No, the Catholic Church did not call the war unjust. The Holy Father considers it unjust, based on his view of the intelligence and the situation. I respect his opinion, but Ratzinger cleared it up, it is only the Holy Father's opinion, not the Church's. Refer to my above explanation then.

[Antonius]

[quote name='TraditionalCatholic' date='Oct 2 2004, 10:05 PM'][url="http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_societies/kerry_bush_sb.htm"]http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_socie...rry_bush_sb.htm[/url]

Yes, Alex Jones on that site can be extreme at times. But the fact is true in this nature.[/quote]
hey, try to stay away from the alex jones dude. while it might be possible that there are conspiracies in the world today, that guy is just a little nutty.

[color=red]Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.[/color] In my opinion.

Bush is not a smart guy and is not conservative. Yes, he's pro life, but he's also for big government and spending money that i'm not 100% sure we have. While he will support some important Catholic issues, he will also trample upon other values we hold dear.

Kerry is certainly not a model Catholic and supports abortion. He does seem, however, that he is smarter (except the killing of innocent life is a stupid, evil thing to do) than Bush and can get the country back in proper gear.

Bush seems the spiritual candidate and Kerry the secular candidate. Bush and Kerry both build the City of Man and not the City of God, and I can only pray that the Holy Spirit guides me into making the right, honest choice.

We should never choose evil.