Harry Potter

[Theoketos]

OK Pham I am posting a track against Harry Poter.

1) Before you question it read the whole thing

2) After you have done this, if you then feel necessary we can go to the debate forum.

An Interview With Fr Gabriele Amorth -
The Church's Leading Exorcist
by
Gyles Brandreth of The Sunday Telegraph
On the bumpy flight to Rome I read The Bible all the way. The passenger on my left - a wiry businesswoman from Wisconsin - found this disconcerting. As the turbulence worsened and I moved from Jude to Revelation, she hissed at me, "Do you have to?" "It's only background reading," I murmured. She grimaced. "What for?" I turned to her and whispered: "I'm going to meet the exorcist." "Oh Christ," she gasped, as the plane lurched and hot coffee spilled over us.

Father Gabriele Amorth is indeed the exorcist, the most senior and respected member of his calling. A priest for 50 years, he is the undisputed leader of the city's six exorcists (appointed by the cardinal to whom the Pope delegates the office of Vicar of Rome) and honorary president-for-life of the International Association of Exorcists. He is 75, small, spry, humorous, and wonderfully direct.

"I speak with the Devil every day," he says, grinning like a benevolent gargoyle. "I talk to him in Latin. He answers in Italian. I have been wrestling with him, day in day out, for 14 years."

On cue (God is not worried by clichés) a shaft of October sunlight falls across Father Amorth's pale, round face. We are sitting at a table by the window in a small high-ceilinged meeting room at his Rome headquarters, the offices of the Society of St Paul. Father Amorth has come to exorcism late in life, but with impressive credentials. Born in 1925 in Modena, northern Italy, the son and grandson of lawyers (his brother is a judge), Gabriele Amorth, in his late teens, joined the Italian resistance.

Immediately after the war, he became a member of the fledgling Christian Democratic Party. Giulo Andreotti was president of the Young Christian Democrats, Amorth was his deputy. Andreotti went into politics and was seven times prime minister. Amorth, having studied law at university, went into the Church.

"From the age of 15," be says, "I knew it was my true vocation. My speciality was the Madonna. For many years I edited the magazine Madre di Deo (Mother of God). When I hear people say, 'You Catholics honour Mary too much,' I reply, 'We are never able to honour her enough.'

"I knew nothing of exorcism - I had given it no thought - until June 6, 1986 when Cardinal Poletti, the then Vicar of Rome, asked to see me. There was a famous exorcist in Rome then, the only one, Father Candido, but he was not well, and Cardinal Poletti told me I was to be his assistant. I learnt everything from Father Candido. He was my great master. Quickly I realised how much work there was to be done and how few exorcists there were to do it. From that day, I dropped everything and dedicated myself entirely to exorcism."

Father Amorth smiles continually as he tells his story. His enthusiasm for his subject is infectious and engaging. "Jesus performed exorcisms. He cast out demons. He freed souls from demonic possession and from Him the Church has received the power and office of exorcism. A simple exorcism is performed at every baptism, but major exorcism can be performed only by a priest licensed by the bishop. I have performed over 50,000 exorcisms. Sometimes it takes a few minutes, sometimes many hours. It is hard work multo duro."

How does he recognise someone possessed by evil spirits? "It is not easy. There are many grades of possession. The Devil does not like to be seen, so there are people who are possessed who manage to conceal it. There are other cases where the person possessed is in acute physical pain, such agony that they cannot move.
"It is essential not to confuse demonic possession with ordinary illness. The symptoms of possession often include violent headaches and stomach cramps, but you must always go to the doctor before you go to the exorcist. I have people come to me who are not possessed at all. They are suffering from epilepsy or schizophrenia or other mental problems. Of the thousands of patients I have seen, only a hundred or so have been truly possessed."

"How can you tell?"

"By their aversion to the sacrament and all things sacred. If blessed they become furious. If confronted with the crucifix, they are subdued." "But couldn't an hysteric imitate the symptoms?"

"We can sort out the phoney ones. We look into their eyes. As part of the exorcism, at specific times during the prayers, holding two fingers on the patient's eyes we raise the eyelids. Almost always, in cases of evil presence, the eyes look completely white. Even with the help of both hands, we can barely discern whether the pupils are towards the top or the bottom of the eye. If the pupils are looking up, the demons in possession are scorpions. If looking down, they are serpents."

As I report this now, it sounds absurd. As Father Amorth told it to me, it felt entirely credible.

I had gone to Rome expecting - hoping, even - for a chilling encounter, but instead of a sinister bug-eyed obsessive lurking in the shadows of a Hammer Horror film set, here I was sitting in an airy room facing a kindly old man with an uncanny knack for making the truly bizarre seem wholly rational. He has God on his side and customers at his door. The demand for exorcism is growing as never before. Fifteen years ago there were 20 church-appointed exorcists in Italy. Now there are 300.

I ask Father Amorph to describe the ritual of exorcism.

"Ideally, the exorcist needs another priest to help him and a group nearby who will assist through prayer. The ritual does not specify the stance of the exorcist. Some stand, some sit. The ritual says only that, beginning with the words Ecce crucem Domini ('Behold the Cross of the Lord') the priest should touch the neck of the possessed one with the hem of his stole and hold his hand on his head. The demons will want to hide. Our task is to expose them, and then expel them. There are many ways to goad them into showing themselves. Although the ritual does not mention this, experience has taught us that using oil and holy water and salt can be very effective.

"Demons are wary of talking and must be forced to speak. When demons are voluntarily chatty it's a trick to distract the exorcist. We must never ask useless questions out of curiosity. We but must interrogate with care. We always begin by asking for the demon's name."

"And does he answer?" I ask. Father Amorth nods. "Yes, through the patient, but in a strange, unnatural voice. If it is the Devil himself, he says 'I am Satan, or Lucifer, or Beelzebub. We ask if he is alone or if there are others with him. Usually there are two or five, 20 or 30. We must quantify the number. We ask when and how they entered that particular body. We find out whether their presence is due to a spell and the specifics of that spell.

"During the exorcism the evil may emerge in slow stages or with sudden explosions. He does not want show himself. He will be angry and he is strong. During one exorcism I saw a child of 11 held down by four strong men. The child threw the men aside with ease. I was there when a boy of 10 lifted a huge, heavy table.

"Afterwards I felt the muscles in the boy's arms. He could not have done it on his own. He had the strength of the Devil inside him.

"No two cases are the same. Some patients have to be tied down on a bed. They spit. They vomit. At first the demon will try to demoralise the exorcist, then he will try to terrify him, saying, 'Tonight I'm going to put a serpent between your sheets. Tomorrow I'm going to eat your heart'."

I lean towards Father Amorth. "And are you sometimes frightened?" I ask. He looks incredulous. "Never. I have faith. I laugh at the demon and say to him, 'I've got the Madonna on my side. I am called Gabriel. Go fight the Archangel Gabriel if you will.' That usually shuts them up."

Now he leans towards me and taps my hand confidentially. "The secret is to find your demon's weak spot. Some demons cannot bear to have the Sign of the Cross traced with a stole on an aching part of the body; some cannot stand a puff of breath on the face; others resist with all their strength against blessing with holy water.

"Relief for the patient is always possible, but to completely rid a person of his demons can take many exorcisms over many years. For a demon to leave a body and go back to hell means to die forever and to lose any ability to molest people in the future. He expresses his desperation saying: 'I am dying, I am dying. You are killing me; you have won. All priests are murderers'."

How do people come to be possessed by demons in the first place? "I believe God sometimes singles out certain souls for a special test of spiritual endurance, but more often people lay themselves open to possession by dabbling with black magic. Some are entrapped by a satanic cult. Others are the victims of a curse."

I interrupt. "You mean like Yasser Arafat saying to Ehud Barak, 'Go to Hell' and meaning it?"

"No." Father Amorth gives me a withering look. "That is merely a sudden imprecation. It is very difficult to perform a curse. You need to be a priest of Satan to do it properly. Of course, just as you can hire a killer if you need one, you can hire a male witch to utter a curse on your behalf. Most witches are frauds, but I am afraid some authentic ones do exist."

Father Amorth shakes his head and sighs at the wickedness of the world. At the outset be has told me he is confident he will have an answer to all my questions, but he has a difficulty with the next one. "Why do many more women seem to become possessed than men?"

"Ah, that we do not know. They may be more vulnerable because, as a rule, more women than men are interested in the occult. Or it may be the Devil's way of getting at men, just as he got to Adam through Eve. What we do know is that the problem is getting worse. The Devil is gaining ground. We are living in an age when faith is diminishing. If you abandon God, the Devil will take his place.

"All faiths, all cultures, have exorcists, but only Christianity has the true force to exorcise through Christ's example and authority. We need many more exorcists, but the bishops won't appoint them. In many countries - Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Spain there are no Catholic exorcists. It is a scandal. In England there are more Anglican exorcists than Catholic ones."

Although the post of exorcist is an official diocesan appointment (there are about 300 attached to the various bishops throughout Italy) and Father Amorth is undisputably the best known in his field, there is some tension between Amorth and the modernising tendencies in the Church hierarchy.

Devil-hunting is not fashionable in senior church circles. The Catholic establishment is happier talking about "the spirit of evil" than evil spirits. The Vatican recently issued a new rite of exorcism which has not met with Father Amorth's approval. "They say we cannot perform an exorcism unless we know for certain that the Evil One is present. That is ridiculous. It is only through exorcism that the demons reveal themselves. An unnecessary exorcism never hurt anybody."

What does the Pope make of all this? "The Holy Father knows that the Devil is still alive and active in the world. He has performed exorcism. In 1982, he performed a solemn exorcism on a girl from Spoletto. She screamed and rolled on the floor. Those who saw it were very frightened. The Pope brought her temporary freedom.
"The other day, on September 6, at his weekly audience at St Peter's, a young woman from a village near Monza started to shriek as the Pope was about to bless her. She shouted obscenities at him in a strange voice. The Pope blessed her and brought her relief, but the Devil is still in her. She is exorcised each week in Milan and she is now coming to me once a month. It may take a long time to help her, but we must try. The work of the exorcists is to relieve suffering, to free souls from torment, to bring us closer to God."

Father Amorth has laughed and smiled a good deal during our three-hour discussion. He has pulled sundry rude faces to indicate his contempt for the pusillanimous bishops who have a monopoly on exorcism and refuse to license more practitioners. In his mouth it does not seem like mumbo-jumbo or hocus-pocus. He produces detailed case histories. He quotes scriptural chapter and verse to justify his actions. And he has a large following. His book, An Exorcist Tells his Story, has been reprinted in Italy 17 times.

Given his shining faith and scholarly approach, I hardly dare ask him whether he has seen the notorious 1973 horror film, The Exorcist. It turns out to be his favourite film. "Of course, the special effects are exaggerated. but it is a good film, and substantially exact, based on a respectable novel which mirrored a true story."

The film is held to be so disturbing it has never been shown [until recently] on British terrestrial television and until last year could not even be rented from video shops. None the less, Father Amorth recommends it. "People need to know what we do."

And what about hallowe'en? The American tradition has made no inroads in Italy. "Here it is on Christmas Eve that the Satanists have their orgies. Nothing happens on October 31. But if English and American children like to dress up as witches and devils on one night of the year that is not a problem. If it is just a game, there is no harm in that.''

It is time to go to the chapel where our photographer is waiting. Father Atnorth, used to the ways of the press, raises an eyebrow at us indulgently as he realises the photograph is designed to heighten the drama of his calling. Pictures taken, he potters off to find me of one ot his books.

"What do make of him?'' asks the photographer. "Is he mad?"

"I don't think so,'' I say. The award-winning Daily and Sunday Telegraph Rome correspondent, who has acted as interpreter br the interview, and is both a lapsed Catholic and a hardened hack, is more empathic: "There's not a trace of the charlatan about him. He is quite sane and utterly convincing."

Surprised at myself I add: "He seems to me to be a power for good in the world." With a smirk, the photographer loads his gear into the back of the taxi. ''So he's Peter Cushing then, not Christopher Lee," he says.

Father Amorth reappears with his book and smiles. "Remember, when we jeer at the Devil and tell ourselves that he does not exist, that is when he is happiest."

This interview first appeared in the 29th October 2000 issue of The Sunday Telegraph and is reproduced with permission
Copyright © Telegraph Group Ltd.

Version: 29th April 2001

[b]Church not taking devil seriously, exorcist warns
Rome, Jun. 11 (CWNews.com)
The chief exorcist of Rome has warned that the Church is not sufficiently conscious of the devil. [/b]
"The devil is extremely satisfied, because he is at liberty to do his work," said Father Gabriel Amorth.
Speaking to the Italian daily L'Espresso, Father Amorth took note of an alarming rise in Satanic practices throughout Italy, and offered some sharp criticism of Church leaders for failing to warn against the devil's influence.
"The Church has gone from one excess to another," he said. "To compensate for the madness of witch-hunting-- in which people were burned when they should have been exorcised-- we have completely eliminated the devil and exorcism." He noted with regret that "entire Catholic regions do not have a single exorcist," naming Spain, Portugal, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. In Italy, on the other hand, there are 160 priests formally charged to act as exorcists, he reported.
Father Amorth, who has become the world's most famous exorcist by writing about the practice and the devil's influence, spoke to L'Espresso about a scandal that has emerged in Italy recently, with the discovery of the bodies of two adolescents who were apparently tortured and killed some time ago. The two young people were both members of a Satanic group, the "Beasts of Satan;" they had been reported missing in January 1998.
Father Amorth, who has been the official exorcist of the Rome diocese since 1986 and is now 80, reminded L'Espresso that, as he has reported in the past, Pope John Paul II (bio - news) has personally performed at least three exorcisms during his pontificate, of which two were completely successful.
(The Pope, like any bishop, has the power to perform exorcisms. He has used that power, in a fashion known to the public, at least three times: in 1978, at the request of a Roman exorcist at St. John Lateran basilica; in 1982, for a woman brought to him by the Bishop of Spoleto, Italy; and in 2002, after a teenage girl exploded in a furious display of unnatural rage during a public audience.)
However he charged that despite the Pope's clear belief in the reality of demonic possession, the Roman Curia have been slow to respond to that reality. "It's been a long time since anyone studied these subjects in the seminary: angels, devils, exorcisms, or even sins against the First Commandment." These sins, he said, would include the use of "magic, spiritualism, and Satanism." In 1999, the Vatican released a new approved ritual for exorcism, De Exorcismis et Supplicationibus Quibusdam. Father Amorth said that the revised ritual is "a disaster for us exorcists." The new ritual, he continued, prevents the priest from proceeding with an exorcism "unless he is certain about the condition of a diabolical possession, which is something that you can only ascertain in the process" of an exorcism. He explained that once an exorcism is begun, the devil often manifests his presence by a "visceral and extremely violent aversion to all that is sacred." That reaction can be shown, he added, through "talking in unknown languages, the explosion of a superhuman force, levitation, revealed during the exorcisms." Fortunately, he said, the old ritual of exorcism remains valid, and can be used rather than the more limited new form.
Father Amorth cautioned that diabolical possession is by no means the only evidence of the devil's existence. "Satan is always at work, in an ordinary way, doing all he can to make man sin," he said. But he added that there are some special cases in which the devil uses his power in a special way, known as possession.
Demonic possession is actually quite rare, the Italian priest said. In most cases, an individual who is brought to consult with an exorcist suffers from psychological rather than spiritual difficulties. However, he noted that some people appear to become possessed after entering a Satanic cult.
Father Amorth noted that only individuals who regret their involvement with Satanic cults ever consult an exorcist. Thus there is no way to know how many active members of the cults might also be possessed. The exorcist offered a chilling reminder: "While it is easy to enter into these Satanic cults, it is extremely difficult to get out." He warned that those who enter the cults are quite literally risking their lives.
There are two types of Satanism, Father Amorth said. In the "high" cult, members adore the devil, perform Black Masses, and follow a hierarchy of cultic leaders. The "low" form of Satanism might appeal to people who do not believe in the existence of a devil, but can be persuaded to engage in obscene and unnatural acts. Father Amorth argues that this second form is more dangerous, because it is far more widespread; he said that the "low" cult has penetrated into the drug culture, heavy-metal music, the "gothic" cult, and the internet.

Note from Drew (compiler of these documents): Not everything Fr. Amorth says is an official Vatican declaration, however, his professional opinion as an exorcist is not diminished. This article shows that his public interviews need not appear on www.vatican.va


ROME'S CHIEF EXORCIST WARNS PARENTS AGAINST HARRY POTTER North American Coverage Downplays Priest's Warnings
NEW YORK, January 2, 2002 (LSN.ca) - In early December, Rome's official exorcist, Fr. Gabriele Amorth, warned parents against the Harry Potter book series. The priest, who is also the president of the International Association of Exorcists, said Satan is behind the works. In an interview with the Italian ANSA news agency, Rev. Amorth said "Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of the darkness, the devil."
The exorcist, with his decades of experience in directly combating evil, explained that J.K. Rowling's books contain innumerable positive references to magic, "the satanic art". He noted that the books attempt to make a false distinction between black and white magic, when in fact, the distinction "does not exist, because magic is always a turn to the devil."
In the interview which was published in papers across Europe, Rev. Amorth also criticized the disordered morality presented in Rowling's works, noting that they suggest that rules can be contravened and lying is justified when they work to one's benefit.
Of note, the North American coverage of Rev. Amorth's warnings about Potter significantly downplayed the warnings. The New York Times coverage by Melinda Henneberger which was carried in Canada's National Post, the San Francisco Chronicle and on Yahoo Daily News left out most of the information in the European coverage which is quoted above. It only quoted Rev. Amorth as saying that "If children can see the movie with their parents, it's not all bad." The Times report also fails to mention that the movie version has significantly cleaned up Harry's image, making it less troublesome than the books.

www.envoymagazine.com/potter_warning.htm

“The Vatican approves of the magic and occult practices described in the Harry Potter books.”
I’ve had parents ask me, “Have you changed your opinion about Harry Potter now that the Vatican has given its approval to the Harry Potter books and movie?” My answer is, “No.” Yet I know that many Catholic parents, who had initially had reservations about Harry Potter, have let their kids read the novels after the Vatican approval. Many other parents are understandably confused.

There is just one problem with making a parental decision based upon the Vatican approval. The Vatican has never approved Harry Potter, and anyone who thinks so has been hoodwinked by a deceptive media. The headlines in quotation marks at the top of this article come directly from newspaper headlines. Similar headlines read: “The Vatican Backs Harry Potter;” “The Vatican is Giving Two Thumbs Up to the Harry Potter Series.” These headlines are false and misleading.

I contacted the Rev. Don Peter Fleetwood, the priest who made the statement at the Vatican press conference that gave rise to the Vatican and Harry Potter worldwide headlines. I asked him some pointed questions regarding his statements about Harry Potter at the Vatican press conference. Fr. Fleetwood kindly sent a March 18, 2003 reply to me.

Here are some key excerpts from his correspondence:

S.W. - Do you agree with the headlines:
a. “The Vatican approves of the magic and occult practices described in the Harry Potter book”?
b. “The Vatican Gives Its Blessing to Harry Potter”?
c. “The Vatican gives its seal of approval to Harry Potter”?

Fr. F - It is helpful for people who were not present at the press conference to know exactly what happened there. Cardinal Paul Poupard, President of the Pontifical Council for Culture, and Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, President of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, presented the document Jesus Christ, The Bearer of the Water of Life, to a large number of journalists in the Vatican press office auditorium. They answered questions in the company of the principal authors of that document, Doctor Teresa Gonçalves, of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, and myself, formerly of the Pontifical Council for Culture. As it happens, I answered quite a few of the questions, most of which – with two notable exceptions – were on the document itself.

One of these "exceptional" questions was asked by John Allen, representing the National Catholic Reporter. He wondered if the new document's expression of concern about magic and witchcraft could be extended to the magic and witchcraft portrayed in the Harry Potter books by British author J.K. Rowling. This was clearly not a question about the New Age document, but an attempt to win a "scoop", a "sound-bite" that would make headlines. As the week progressed, Allen's hopes were clearly realised beyond his expectations. However, some of the headlines strike me – the one who answered Allen's question – as quite bizarre.

 It is a pure trick of journalistic liberty to use headlines like "Vatican gives green light to Harry Potter" [emphasis mine], or to suggest that, while New Age is bad, Harry Potter is good. I also never said that Rowling's books were imbued with Christian principles. What I said was that they are meant to underline for children the difference between good and evil, and Rowling's conviction that, in the end, good always triumphs over evil.

S.W. - Please briefly comment on the statement of Gabriele Amorth, Rome’s Chief Exorcist, “Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of the darkness, the devil.” [Also], did you intend for your comments at the Press Conference to reflect your personal views or to render an official opinion of the Vatican?

Fr. F - As regards comments made by Father Gabriel Amorth about Harry Potter, it has to be remembered that what he is reported to have said is his opinion. Like mine, it is something personal and has no more or less authority than what I think [emphasis mine]. I respect his opinion very much, but have to disagree in this case. [End]

Thus, there has been no Vatican approval of Harry Potter. Fr. Fleetwood knew he was being tossed a “scoop” question about Harry Potter and merely offered his personal opinion that Harry Potter was okay for kids. Fr. Fleetwood says that his statement at the Vatican press conference was “something personal” and that his opinion about Harry Potter “has no more or less authority than what [he] thinks.”

Just in case our readers are unfamiliar with Fr. Gabriele Amorth, he is the Chief Exorcist in Rome for the Vatican. He has exorcised 30,000 persons who have been victims of Satan’s influence, possession, or oppression. He is also the president of the International Association of Exorcists. Fr. Amorth had declared in a public interview, "Behind Harry Potter hides the signature of the king of the darkness, the devil."
In the same interview Fr. Amorth warned that Rowling's books contain innumerable positive references to magic, “the satanic art.” He also noted that there is no distinction between black and white magic, “because magic is always a turn to the devil." To read the full news release of this interview go to: [url="http://www.familylifecenter.net/html/harrypotter-exorcist.html"]http://www.familylifecenter.net/html/harry...r-exorcist.html[/url].
All magical practices, casting spells, and sorcery lead to contact with the world of the demonic. These are not benign impersonal forces that are entertaining to play with, but are personal forces of evil that we call demons. I learned this the hard way.

Before converting to Christianity, I thought that I was becoming “enlightened” while studying at Edgar Cayce’s Association for Research and Enlightenment. It was thrilling to experience the floor shaking underneath my chair as we prayed and practiced clairvoyant channeling of thoughts. In reality, I was exposing myself to demonic forces. I didn’t know that “Satan disguises himself as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14).

For me, reading the first few Potter novels was a return to very familiar territory – Satan’s.

I realize that many priests, Catholic periodicals, scholars, and even some bishops, think that Harry Potter is okay. Before following their advice, ask yourself, “Do they have firsthand experience with the occult/new age movement, or with rescuing people out of it?” The questions surrounding Harry Potter are not just those of literary style and taste, they are probing questions about the real threat of a worldwide drift towards: monism, the New Age, the occult and other “enlightening” spiritual experiences.

• Have those who say to parents, “Harry is Okay” visited AskJeeves.com (the homework help website) and asked just a dozen questions related to the topics in the Potter books?

• Have they visited any of the many kiddie links for casting spells?

• Have they visited teenwitch.com and read the inquiries from Christian teens interested in becoming witches? Have they read the tips from other kids for hiding books on witchcraft from their parents?

• Have they explained why Rowling would create a character named “Madame Vablatsky?” Google’s search engines realize that “B” and “V” have a similar sound. Madame Blavatsky’s name comes up in a “Vablatsky” Google search. Her biography reads, “The priestess of the Occult who brought back theosophical occult philosophies from Tibet for the Western world.” Hmmm.

I know many people disagree with me about Harry Potter. Maybe I’m all wrong about Harry. Perhaps the Dutch priest, Fr. Joris Ridderbos, is right to celebrate a Harry Potter mass for children. Fr. Ridderbos says there are a lot of similarities between the story of Harry Potter and the life of Jesus.


[url="http://www.familylifecenter.net/html/resources/harry-potter-vatican-blessing.doc"]http://www.familylifecenter.net/html/resou...an-blessing.doc[/url]

[phatcatholic]

hmmmmm, very intersting

[StColette]

I agree with phat, very interesting points of view, but entirely we must keep in mind that "Harry Potter" books are fictional, just like the many fairy tales that are filled with forms of magic which we all watched or read as children.

To do away with all books or stories with magic in them would mean no Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White ( girls wouldn't be able to handle the loss of these lol ) There are many more that could be added to the list but you get my point

lol btw I'm not arguing I'm just stating my opinion towards this. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and knowing how most Catholics are we tend to be generally stuck in our ways and don't like to budge lol

God Bless,
Jennie Catherine

[Theoketos]

[quote name='StColette' date='Oct 1 2004, 11:30 AM'] I agree with phat, very interesting points of view, but entirely we must keep in mind that "Harry Potter" books are fictional, just like the many fairy tales that are filled with forms of magic which we all watched or read as children.

To do away with all books or stories with magic in them would mean no Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White ( girls wouldn't be able to handle the loss of these lol ) There are many more that could be added to the list but you get my point

lol btw I'm not arguing I'm just stating my opinion towards this. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and knowing how most Catholics are we tend to be generally stuck in our ways and don't like to budge lol

God Bless,
Jennie Catherine [/quote]
Jennie,

You are such a wonderful example of Christ.

While this stories are fiction, they contain the real occult, which is really from the devil.

It comes down to this.

Reading the Occult is bad for us even if it slightly dumbed downed or disguised.

Harry Potter has Occult in it even if it slightly dumbed downed or disguised.

Therefore Harry Potter is bad for us to read.

Honestly, they are well written except for the black art in them ...

Ave Maria,

James III

[StColette]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 1 2004, 01:15 PM'] While this stories are fiction, they contain the real occult, which is really from the devil.

It comes down to this.

Reading the Occult is bad for us even if it slightly dumbed downed or disguised.

Harry Potter has Occult in it even if it slightly dumbed downed or disguised.

Therefore Harry Potter is bad for us to read.
[/quote]
I know that the stories contain the real occult, and I know that the occult is directly from the devil. But again if we are to do away with everything that has a reference to magic in it, not just the examples shown in Harry Potter, we would be without the book Narnia or The Lord of the Rings books as well, for they all contains magic which has much to do with the occult. We could discuss this for ages lol It comes down to the simple point of, if you're going to stand against the references to magic in one set of books you should stand against the references to magic in all books.

I personally have read all the books and I know the difference between fact and fiction. And I know the occult is real but I also know that Harry Potter books will not lead me to joining the occult because I know that the occult is pure evil and I'm a child of God and I'm forever His.

God Bless,
Jennie Catherine

[Kaeldra]

[quote]  we would be without the book Narnia or The Lord of the Rings books as well, for they all contains magic which has much to do with the occult. [/quote]

Nooooo.....Narnia books and Lord of the Rings are both very christian books


Those articles were extremely interesting, especially for me because I know a priest who perfroms exorcisms...and I am also personally a fan of Harry Potter. I agree with StCollette....its a work of fiction, and part of the reason there is such controversy is because of how popular it is. My personal belief is that these books wouldn't really be such a problem if 1. they weren't directed at such young kids because they arent really [i]children's[/i] books. 2. if people didn't exploit them by linking them with occult things, because that's where a big problem is coming from. I do think it's a problem...but I don't think that the Harry Potter books are intrinsically evil. Hmm...I don't know. I'm still going to read them

[StColette]

[quote name='Kaeldra' date='Oct 1 2004, 02:11 PM']
Nooooo.....Narnia books and Lord of the Rings are both very christian books
[/quote]
lol I know Narnia and the Lord of the Rings books are all very Christian books but they do contain the element of magic

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 1 2004, 02:15 PM'] Jennie,

You are such a wonderful example of Christ.

While this stories are fiction, they contain the real occult, which is really from the devil.

It comes down to this.

Reading the Occult is bad for us even if it slightly dumbed downed or disguised.

Harry Potter has Occult in it even if it slightly dumbed downed or disguised.

Therefore Harry Potter is bad for us to read.

Honestly, they are well written except for the black art in them ...

Ave Maria,

James III [/quote]
Theoketos, I've always respected you, but I can't agree with this. Harry Potter certainly addresses black magic and magic in general. I don't mean to debate the issue and hitherto will not respond in this thread except to clarify my position, but I do think it needs to be put out there.

There are two different kinds of magic in literature. One is incantational magic, the idea of which is to use the laws of the universe (expressed as song, rhythm, etc., in the term [i]incantation[/i]). This is what we talk about when we say mention [i]enchanted forests[/i] and the like. The word [i]enchant[/i] has the same root. Now, any magic is objectively evil, but as a literary device, this is seen as the morally harmless one, because it works in a way meant to glorify someone other than oneself and to add fancy to a story.

The second kind of magic is [i]invocational[/i] and it is about calling demons, spirits, etc. to one's side; in effect, necromancy. It is what we call black magic and it also does appear in the Harry Potter series.

Keeping in mind that Harry Potter is fiction, then, it is natural to put incantational magic up against invocational, which is done in many, many literary works (including Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia). No one says that these are evil works of literature. In Harry Potter, likewise, the good guys use incantational magic and the bad guys use invocational. There is a very clear duality and divide between the two. While invocational magic is used very often and, yes, in very dark ways, it is always portrayed as evil.

The Bible itself includes reference to invocational magic (recall the necromancy with Samuel), as well as portrayals of very dark evil (a great hunk of the Book of Revelation),but portrays evil as evil. Certainly none of us would say that the Bible is evil or should not be read by the Christian.

Harry Potter also contains very Christian moral doctrine, especially that there is absolute truth, absolute morality, a clear divide between good and evil, and the true nature of friendship.

In addition, there are many things which have long symbolized Christ. The Gryffin, for example, the symbol of Harry's house, is half-eagle and half-lion, that is to say, lord of the sky and lord of the earth. The Gryffin is a symbol of Christ. The Hippogriff takes it a step further. Medieval bestiaries (catalogues of real and mythological creatures) had the hippogriff as a third-eagle, a third-lion, and a third-horse. I have read a commentary on Harry Potter relating this to the Trinity. I also know that Albus Dumbledore means [i]White Bumblebee[/i], in other words, a symbol of purity and a symbol of something someone cute, hard-working, productive, etc., but with a sting when necessary. It may also be interesting to note that when bumblebees sting, they die. This may be a clue as to the nature of Dumbledore's death...will he die in battle with evil, particularly to save another, as a bee might, by legend, die to save the queen? What's more, the evil characters are given names that clearly correspond to evil-Draco Malfoy (Latin: Dragon, French: Bad-faith), Lucius Malfoy (Lucius led anti-Christian persecutions, and it resembles the name [i]Lucifer[/i], cf. the Bad-faith name), Narcissa Malfoy (Greek and Latin: Narcissus was a self-loving, selfish prince of ancient poetry), Voldemort (French: Flight of Death).

Furthermore, one cannot say where the series will go. Maybe it ends with all the wizards and witches deciding that all magic should be abandoned. Who knows?

What's more, J.K. Rowling is on the record as saying that she will not allow her daughter to read the books because she says they aren't meant for children. That doesn't sound like the attitude of someone who is trying to bring people to the occult.

After all is said and done, the Harry Potter books do not use magic as an end, but as a means to an end, and that end is a moral and genuinely Christian one and underlies the entire series. The magic used is what is classicly used morally in a literary sense and the story which is told is unbelievably Christian.

The Onion, a parody newspaper, ran an article several years ago about the growing numbers of Wicca because of the Harry Potter books and several book-burning groups took it seriously and used the reported statistics as fuel for the fire. In truth, the books have not raised interest or enrollment in Wicca and, read in light of the Gospel, the books can lead people closer to Christ.

[heyyoimjohnny]

I have questions, Theoketos. What you have just said; do you mean that Lord of the Rings is bad for us to read too? And every computer or video game invilving magic bad to play (for that reason, obviously)?

I'm pretty confused about the whole thing. Harry Potter is only a miniscule portion of all that is appealing and involves magic these days. Does that mean those are bad too? I've never read any of the potter books (I don't think I need to explain my reasons ), but I've played plenty of games and such that have magic in them. And again, what about LOTR?


Makes me wonder....

[heyyoimjohnny]

Oop, Raph got to it before I could post!

[Kaeldra]

Raphael...your post was reaalllly interesting I liked it a lot

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Kaeldra' date='Oct 1 2004, 03:34 PM'] Raphael...your post was reaalllly interesting I liked it a lot [/quote]


Thanks.

It's of great interest to me as a classicist and medievalist.

I have a copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone in Latin.

[Kaeldra]

nice

[phatcatholic]

you all are debating.......

[StColette]

sorry Phat pwease forgive me