Scriptural Basis For Restricting Sainthood

[Curious_Protestant]

Where does the Catholic Church get their idea that saints are "special", and rare?

[Guest Aluigi]

actually, those who are cannonized as saints are by no means the only ppl the Church considers saints. they r known as [i]popular[/i] saints. they are those who lived and died as great examples of the Faith and the Church through the power of the Holy Spirit knows they are in heaven. the entire Church Triumphant (those members of the Church who persevered to the end and are now in heaven) are saints. they are [i]unpopular[/i] saints... we here on earth do not know the eternal fate of ANYONE except the popular saints in heaven.

[Curious_Protestant]

So the Catholics believe that certain individuals are saints in heaven becasue the Holy Spirit told the Church they were there? Does one need to be dead to be a saint? This is certainly not my view, but I am curious what the catholic view is.

[Guest Aluigi]

saint means holy.

the holiest ppl are those who are in heaven.

according to Catholic Theology, one must persevere to the end to be saved for all eternity. i mean, it's all through St. Paul's letters that we were saved ([i]Rom. 8:24; Eph. 2:5,8; 2 Tim. 1:9 Titus 3:5[/i]), are being saved ([i]1 Cor. 1:18 ; 2 Cor. 2:15; Phil. 2:12; 1 Peter 1:9 [/i]), and will be saved if we pertsevere to the end. ([i]Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13; Acts 15:11; Rom. 5:9-10; Rom. 13:11; 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Tim. 2:11-12; Heb. 9:28; James 5:15[/i])

i think that fundamental difference in understanding of salvation really affects who we view as saints and who as saints-in-the-making.

also, no saint is dead. God is not a God of the dead but of the living [i]St Matthew 22:32[/i]

[Flash]

Good response Aluigi!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Curious_Protestant' date='Sep 28 2004, 08:51 PM'] So the Catholics believe that certain individuals are saints in heaven becasue the Holy Spirit told the Church they were there?  Does one need to be dead to be a saint?  This is certainly not my view, but I am curious what the catholic view is. [/quote]
Everybody in heaven is a Saint. Certain people whose life is publically known to be holy are offically recognized by the Church as canonized saints such as Padre Pio, Mother Theresa, St Francis, St Maximillan Kolbe. But most saints are known by name only to God.

People on earth can act in a saintly manner, but you are not a saint until you get to heaven, because while on earth, we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling and have not yet attained salvation.

Edited September 29, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[DojoGrant]

I'm going to have to disagree a bit, Cmom, simply because Paul does refer to various people he writes letters to as "saints." Should we remain free from sin after our Baptism, even if for only a period of time, then we are saints on earth, for Original Sin is washed away, and actual sins are forgiven in Reconilliation. It's possible to be a saint on earth; its just not necessarily (and not likely) a permanent thing, should we fall back into sin.

[cmotherofpirl]

I understand how St PAul used the term, but we are discussing how the Church has always used the term. Yes there are people we refer to as living saints beofre they die, but by strict definition they are not proclaimed until after death.

SAINTS. A name given in the New Testament to Christians generally (Colossians 1:2) but early restricted to persons who were eminent for holiness. In the strict sense saints are those who distinguish themselves by heroic virtue during life and whom the Church honors as saints either by her ordinary universal teaching authority or by a solemn definition called canonization. The Church's official recognition of sanctity implies that the persons are now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked everywhere, and that their virtues during life or martyr's death are a witness and example to the Christian faithful. (Etym. Latin sanctus, holy, sacred.)

Edited September 29, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Curious_Protestant' date='Sep 28 2004, 04:26 PM'] Where does the Catholic Church get their idea that saints are "special", and rare? [/quote]
The saints that are canonized by the Church are not the only saints in heaven. The process of canonization simply means that a man or woman, who has been justified and deified by Christ's grace, can be publicly venerated in the Church's liturgy. All the saints, including those known only to God, are venerated in the Latin Rite on the feast of All Saints on November 1st, and in the Eastern Rites on the Sunday after Pentecost.

[Donna]

Curious, hello.

They are special and rare because of their heroic virtue, but also because of miracles they wrought, and non-natural happenings they could "do", like levitation, bi-location (appearing in more than one place at one time), subsisting only on Holy Communion, healing the sick, even raising the dead, there's many, many examples.

Oh - and being incorrupt: some saints' bodies have not decayed after death:

[url="http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/lourdes_photo_aa.htm"]http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/lourdes_photo_aa.htm[/url]

[Enda]

Well, what the term "saint" really means is anyone on earth who's in the state of grace, or anyone who's in Heaven. Saints aren't really special, or rare, just the people who excell in virtue on this earth enough (and ultimately who God choses to call) get cannonized.

[foundsheep]

So are you saying only those that get attention?

[Guest Aluigi]

the traditional Catholic Teaching is that some saints in Heaven are called to be POPULAR SAINTS, i.e. known to be in the Church Triumphant by those in the Church Militant. There are a multitude of UNPOPULAR SAINTS in heaven. We are all saints in training.

St. Paul used the term to teach the Christians that they had a special annointing, a special mission, a special role in the world. In fact, as far as I can tell, the word "CHRISTIAN" can replace what St. Paul meant when he used the word "SAINT"

it's all about how the words developed into their modern meanings. CHRIST means annointed, messiah, God's chosen one. Thus us Christians are God's chosen people. holy and saint mean the same thing, annointed basically, but they have evolved in the english language such that we assosiate SAINT as pertaining to those who are secured in their call from God, have persevered to the end, and now enjoy the Beatific Vision. we assosiate HOLY as the adjective to describe when a person or thing is dedicated to God and pleasing to God. we assosiate CHRISTIAN with those who follow Christ, the Annointed One of God, those who are striving to be holy while still in the Church Militant on Earth.

Basically, when St. Paul says: to the saints in such and such a place, he means to the annointed in this place... to those who are striving to be holy and pleasing to God.. to those who have been called out of darkness towards the light... basically, he's saying TO THE CHRISTIANS.

so basically, i think the root of the division here is a confusion caused by semantics.