Scripural Support For Purgatory

[Curious_Protestant]

I am curious, how does the catholic church support the idea of purgatory?

Edited September 28, 2004 by Curious_Protestant

[Guest Aluigi]

someone else will prolly give u a more personal answer, but u could check out our reference section if ure interested [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=8020"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=8020[/url]

i cant really type out somethin for u right now... im typing w/ only one hand cuz my arm is hurt. sorry.

Pax Christi

[Curious_Protestant]

I appreciate the link, but I don't have time to read all of that. Could someone provide some simple verses to support your theory, and let me read them on my own?

[Guest Aluigi]

hows this for ya? srry for cutting and pasting, but it's just all here for easy reference and i couldn't compile it better:
[quote]I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.



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II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.



[/quote] [url="http://scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html"]http://scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html[/url]

[Crusader_4]

Aluigi,

There are some good quotes in there that support purgatory however there are a few weaker ones. I dont have the time right now to go through them all but just to curious protestant there are some great quotes in there but a few of them are a lil on the weak side. With that being said thanks for the time Aluigi to get those quotes they really do show that we dont simply make up doctrines on the whim of a Pope.

[Guest Aluigi]

i should have said that myself... srry

i admit, yes, this isn't exactly solid proof from scripture... just indications from it. i've gone through some scripturecatholic links and seen that they don't always have the most solid reference, it's sometimes just a little tiny support

one must take into account that this was and has always been Jewish doctrine. Christ never contested it and His Churech came out from the very begining holding to this belief. u only asked for scripture, but we could also provide early church quotes in unanimous support of it. anyway, it wasnt explicitly taught in scripture (neither was the Trinity) but has been held by the Christian Church since the time of Christ, and was originally held by the Jews

[DojoGrant]

Purgatory is a logical necessity, even if you don't want to call it "purgatory."

Do we sin? Yes.
Will we sin in Heaven? No.
Will we have sin on our souls in Heaven? No.
Do we have sin on our souls now? A lot of the time.

When you die, that's it. You are judged. Even if you are found worthy of Heaven by the grace of God, should you have even the smallest sin on your soul, you cannot enter into Heaven with it. Something must occur between the judgement and your entrance into Heaven. Purgatory is that something.

[mulls]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Sep 28 2004, 10:32 PM'] Purgatory is a logical necessity, even if you don't want to call it "purgatory."

Do we sin? Yes.
Will we sin in Heaven? No.
Will we have sin on our souls in Heaven? No.
Do we have sin on our souls now? A lot of the time.

When you die, that's it. You are judged. Even if you are found worthy of Heaven by the grace of God, should you have even the smallest sin on your soul, you cannot enter into Heaven with it. Something must occur between the judgement and your entrance into Heaven. Purgatory is that something. [/quote]
where does Christ fit in to all of that?

[Guest Aluigi]

Christ purges your sins from your soul through the fires of His love.

[Crusader_4]

Actually interesting thing i came across today C.S. Lewis was a big believer in Purgatory. (it doenst have nething to do with CP's question just found it interesting tho)

[mulls]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Sep 28 2004, 11:57 PM'] Christ purges your sins from your soul through the fires of His love. [/quote]
where does his sacrifice fit into that?

[mulls]

the fact that we're talking about salvation and i have to ask these questions is pretty sad

[Justified Saint]

[quote]Actually interesting thing i came across today C.S. Lewis was a big believer in Purgatory. (it doenst have nething to do with CP's question just found it interesting tho)[/quote]


C.S. Lewis puts it as plainly as anyone else on the topic:

[i]Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.' [/i]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mulls' date='Sep 29 2004, 07:59 AM']the fact that we're talking about salvation and i have to ask these questions is pretty sad[/quote]
Actually, the fact that you had to ask these questions is sad, but only because it shows that you fundamentally misunderstand the Catholic doctrine of salvation. No one can go through purgatory (final [i]theosis[/i]) without Christ, for it is the incarnation and the paschal mystery of Christ that make heaven and the purification of final [i]theosis[/i] possible. Christ became man in order to deify humanity and raise it up into the Godhead, and anything that enters into the uncreated life of the Triune God must be wholly and completely pure (cf., Rev. 21:27); thus it cannot simply receive an imputed and extrinsic righteousness as the Reformers mistakenly believed. Salvation doesn't just happen [i]to[/i] you, it happens [i]in[/i], [i]with[/i], and [i]through[/i] you. As St. Augustine said, "God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How would you have consented, when you did not exist? [i]But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without your willing it[/i]." [St. Augustine, Sermon 169:13] The grace received in the process of salvation is not extrinsic to man; instead, it is infused into man, and as a consequence he is really sanctified by the grace of God, and this sanctification (i.e., divinization) involves an internal process of cleansing and configuration to the image (eikon) of the only begotten Son of God which takes place throughout this earthly life, and if a man dies in a state of deifying grace but with certain venial sins upon his soul, then it also involves purification of those disordered attachments in the life to come (final [i]theosis[/i]). The fundamental error of the Protestant Reformers was to reduce salvation to the mere non-imputation of sins, because salvation actually involves the elevation of man into the uncreated life and glory of the Trinity, and nothing that has not been cleansed of all impurity by the grace of almighty God can enter into the beatific vision.

[HartfordWhalers]

It seems that the last post on most threads regarding protestant "theology" is Apotheon silencing error. Keep up the good work. This explanation is especially good, since the fact that a person would have to ask such a question shows that he is not advanced in theological matters, yet your explanation is still very clear. God bless.