Jesus Human Nature And The Immaculate Conception

[Seven77]

Last week during a discussion a Pentecostal friend who is a nurse mentioned that according to science the blood of the mother is not the blood of the child. That is, the blood of a child is not derived from his mother, the child produces their own blood. Now her pastor said that this explains why Mary did not pass on original sin to Jesus when She gave birth to Him! I told her that original sin is not in blood and it is not passed on in generations that way. I said that Mary gave Jesus his DNA and His flesh is from Her (my friend agrees with this and does believe the Blessed Virgin's features are His features) . Mary's blood not 'mixing' with Jesus' blood is an incorrect way of explaining the sinlessness of Jesus' human nature.

Then I gave my friend the true explanation of why Jesus did not contract original sin in His Human Nature---i tried to explain the doctrine of the Immaculate Concepton to her. His Mother was concieved without sin! Mary is the Woman in Gen 3:15, Her Seed is Jesus. To be at emnity with satan means he has no hold on you, sin has no hold in you. The Woman AND Her Seed both have emnity with satan, with sin! From New Eve to Ark of the New Covenant to Full of Grace i tried my best to show her about the Immaculate Concepton from Scripture. My friend said yes that sounds like it could be right, it sounds good and she respects the Catholic teaching but 'the Bible doesn't teach it directly'. And she still seemed hung up on the whole blood thing as a valid explaination!

And what about the blood thing? In some spiritual writings it says Jesus is Mary's flesh AND blood. In "The Passion" doesnt the Blessed Mother at the foot of the Cross cry looking at Jesus something like "flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood"?

Help!!!! My friend is coming tomorrow. I'm going to give her a copy of a good article on The Ark of the New Covenant with Scriptural parallels.

[phatcatholic]

the most important distinction to make here is that Jesus did not obtain his sinlessness from Mary in any way, shape, or form. afterall, he existed as the second person of the Trinity before the beginning of time. thus, rather Mary is sinless or not has no bearing on the sinlessness of Jesus. he is sinless b/c he is God. period.

furthermore, when we defend the sinlessness of Mary its not b/c her sinlessness is necessary but b/c it is the most fitting circumstance for Jesus, and b/c it is the Truth. all three pillars of our faith affirm this: Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium of the Church.

as for their being no "direct" statement from scripture, such a verse isn't necessary in order to prove that a doctrine is biblical. afterall, there are many other universal christian doctrines that aren't explicit in scripture, such as the Trinity and the hypostatic union (Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine). the bible was not even meant to be a catechism, filled w/ "direct statements" of everything we are supposed to believe. so, as long as a doctrine is implicity present and it is not anti-biblical (it doesn't contradict anything in the bible), then the bible affirms it.

catholics don't even contend that the Immaculate Conception is explicitly present in the bible. but, we do claim that it is implicitly there and that it is not anti-biblical. you have already begun to prove this w/ your conversation w/ her.

as for the whole blood thing, its really a non-issue. there's no reason to try to explain how mary's apparent sinfulness was kept from Jesus. he would have remained sinless regardless of the degree of sin of his mother. who could ever make God a sinful being? such is beyond the power of all created things, including the devil. plus, our sinfulness isn't even communicated through our blood. original sin isn't something that we inherit or something that is given to us. instead, it is the absence of a special grace that God took away when our first parents sinned. thus, when we are born w/ sin we are just being born as we're supposed to be, instead of being protected in a special way, as Adam and Eve were.

as for the "my flesh and blood" and "flesh of my flesh, blood of my blood" statements, this are just phrases meant to relay the idea that a person is a direct relative. when i say, "you are my flesh and blood" i mean that you came from me, i birthed you. it is very correct for Mary to say this of Jesus. afterall, Mary gave Jesus his humanity, his human body, his human nature. this has nothing to do w/ blood or even sin. a mom communicates to her son his human nature--and that son will be born w/ original sin--rather their blood mix or not. had Jesus not been God, he would have been born w/ sin as well (i shudder to think!!!!!).

i hope the helps.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Seven77]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Sep 28 2004, 02:21 PM'] the most important distinction to make here is that Jesus did not obtain his sinlessness from Mary in any way, shape, or form. afterall, he existed as the second person of the Trinity before the beginning of time. thus, rather Mary is sinless or not has no bearing on the sinlessness of Jesus. he is sinless b/c he is God. period.

furthermore, when we defend the sinlessness of Mary its not b/c her sinlessness is necessary but b/c it is the most fitting circumstance for Jesus, and b/c it is the Truth. all three pillars of our faith affirm this: Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium of the Church.
[/quote]
ahh.. Jesus is sinless b/c He's GOD would have been the answer for her at that moment! it seems i got sidetracked! thanks!

---

i dont know if i understand this though--

"had Jesus not been God, he would have been born w/ sin as well (i shudder to think!!!!!)."

see if you follow this reasoning:

if His Mother is an Immaculate Virgin He would be Immaculate too even if He was not GOD (i shudder too). but if Jesus wasnt GOD how could Mary be Immaculate and how could She be a Virgin Mother? (shuddering again)
----


thanks!

[StColette]

Often times with dealing with the discussion of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, I often wonder if people don't accept it because they don't think God would do that. It often makes me think that they believe it isn't possible. We all know that everything is possible with God, and if He wants someone to be born sinless then we can be assured that He will make it so.

[phatcatholic]

[quote]i dont know if i understand this though--

"had Jesus not been God, he would have been born w/ sin as well (i shudder to think!!!!!)."

see if you follow this reasoning:

if His Mother is an Immaculate Virgin He would be Immaculate too even if He was not GOD (i shudder too).[/quote]
this sentence is incorrect. if his mother was an immaculate virgin and Jesus was not God, he would have still been born w/ sin. this is b/c sinlessness is not passed on like a genetic trait. it requires that a special grace be given to a person in every instance. Mary is immaculate b/c a special grace was given to her. however, she cannot pass this on to her children. instead, it requires that a special grace be given by God to her children as well.

[quote] but if Jesus wasnt GOD how could Mary be Immaculate and how could She be a Virgin Mother? (shuddering again) [/quote]
well, i suppose that it is w/in the power of God the Father to grant Mary this special grace to make her sinless. however, it is much more likely that she was saved by her Son Jesus Christ, who is the savior of all mankind. if the Father was to grant saving grace only through the Son, then you are right, if Jesus was not God then she would not be able to be sinless.

does that make sense? let me know....

pax christi,
nick

[Apotheoun]

Phatcatholic addressed this in an earlier thread:

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=20180&view=findpost&p=354731"]Mary's sinlessness[/url]

The immaculate conception of Mary is most fitting, but Christ's sinlessness is not dependent upon it.

[Seven77]

StColette: i wonder the same things..

Edited September 29, 2004 by Seven77

[Seven77]

Nick,
I understand---thanks to you--now more than ever this statement by Apotheoun "The immaculate conception of Mary is most fitting, but Christ's sinlessness is not dependent upon it. "

I understand that Mother Mary is Immaculate by a special grace and by virtue of the merits of Christ.

i know original sin is not in genetics. but im kind of stuck on how come Jesus if He were not GOD would not be sinless if His Mother were sinless? Eve, who was created immaculate, if she had children before the Fall they would have been immaculate too.


[quote]well, i suppose that it is w/in the power of God the Father to grant Mary this special grace to make her sinless. however, it is much more likely that she was saved by her Son Jesus Christ, who is the savior of all mankind. if the Father was to grant saving grace only through the Son, then you are right, if Jesus was not God then she would not be able to be sinless.

does that make sense? let me know....[/quote]

ok. this makes sense to me..

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Seven77' date='Sep 29 2004, 02:01 PM'] i know original sin is not in genetics. but im kind of stuck on how come Jesus if He were not GOD would not be sinless if His Mother were sinless?  Eve, who was created immaculate, if she had children before the Fall they would have been immaculate too. [/quote]
ok, before the fall, God basically said, "i will shower one grace on all humanity. this will perfect their human nature so that they are free from sin." so, if Eve were to have children before the fall, they would be sinless not b/c Eve passed it on to her children, but b/c of the grace that God is giving to all humanity. however, Adam and Eve sinned. so, God took the grace away from humanity. so, Eve's children were born in their regular human nature, instead of w/ the special grace of God. subsequent generations are born into sin. fastforward to Mary. she is due to be born in her regular human nature. but, she is given a grace that perfects her human nature. now, hypothetically speaking, lets say God the Father gave her this grace and when she is older she gives birth to a son named Jesus who is not God. b/c the special grace was given to Mary alone and not showered upon all humanity (like the first grace was) then Mary would be sinless in a special way, but the pattern would return to normal with her son, since God the Father only gave this grace to Mary and since this grace is not passed on thru the genes, or blood, or anything like that.

make sense?

Edited September 29, 2004 by phatcatholic