My Signature - Here Micah. Argue About It Here

[MorphRC]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 22 2004, 05:15 PM']Re-evaluate your position on the US from honest sources instead of intellectual, elitist, secular tripe and then speak your mind.[/quote]
[font="Times"][color=red][b]US State Sponsored Terror:[/b][/color][/font]

[b]Nicaragua[/b]

From [i]Derailing Democracy[/i]
by Dave McGowan:

Following the fall of the Somoza regime, which had been backed for decades by the U.S., the CIA formed and armed the covert army known as the “Contras” from the remains of Somoza’s National Guard. Assisted by covert U.S. air power, this proxy army inflicted considerable death and destruction across the Nicaraguan countryside.

[i]Derailing Democracy: The America the Media Don’t Want You to See[/i], Dave McGowan.

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From [b]Killing Hope[/b]
by William Blum:

When the Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza dictatorship in 1978, it was clear to Washington that they might well be that long-dreaded beast — “another Cuba.” Under President Carter, attempts to sabotage the revolution took diplomatic and economic forms. Under Reagan, violence was the method of choice. For eight terribly long years, the people of Nicaragua were under attack by Washington’s proxy army, the Contras, formed from Somoza’s vicious National Guard and other supporters of the dictator.

It was all-out war, aiming to destroy the progressive social and economic programs of the government, burning down schools and medical clinics, raping, torturing, mining harbors, bombing and strafing. These were Ronald Reagan’s “freedom fighters.” There would be no revolution in Nicaragua.

[i]Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II [/i], Common Courage Press, [i]1995, 2001[/i]; ISBN 1-56751-052-3

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From a talk by [b]John Stockwell[/b], 13-year veteran of the CIA and former U.S. Marine Corps major:

“Systematically, the Contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. Remember the ‘Assassination Manual’ that surfaced in 1984? It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror to traumatize society so that it cannot function.

“I don’t mean to abuse you with verbal violence, but you have to understand what your Government and its agents are doing.

“They go into villages. They haul out families. With the children forced to watch, they castrate the father. They peel the skin off his face. They put a grenade in his mouth, and pull the pin. With the children forced to watch, they gang-rape the mother, and slash her breasts off. And sometimes, for variety, they make the parents watch while they do these things to the children.

“This is nobody’s propaganda!

“There have been over a hundred thousand American ‘Witnesses for Peace’ who’ve gone down there, and they have filmed and photographed and witnessed these atrocities immediately after they’ve happened, and documented thirteen thousand people killed this way — mostly women and children.

“These are the activities done by the Contras. The Contras are the people President Reagan called ‘freedom fighters.’ He said: ‘they are the moral equivalent of our founding fathers.’”

[b]See also: [/b]

Teaching Nicaragua a lesson
From What Uncle Sam Really Wants
by Noam Chomsky

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From [b]Killing Hope[/b]
by William Blum:

The U.S. supported the Duvalier family dictatorship for 30 years, then opposed the reformist priest, Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Meanwhile, the CIA was working intimately with death squads, torturers, and drug traffickers.

With this as background, the Clinton White House found itself in the awkward position of having to pretend — because of all their rhetoric about “democracy” — that they supported Aristide’s return to power in Haiti after he had been ousted in a 1991 military coup. After delaying his return for more than two years, Washington finally had its military restore Aristide to office, but only after obliging the priest to guarantee that he would not help the poor at the expense of the rich, and that he would stick closely to free-market economics. This meant that Haiti would continue to be the assembly plant of the Western Hemisphere, with its workers receiving literally starvation wages.

[b]See also:[/b]
U.S. Terrorism of the Central American, South American and Caribbean Peoples

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[b]Slaughter in the Islands[/b]

The precursor of it all was the murderous terror of Indonesian Muslims against Christians in East Timor, unknown in America although Washington tolerated ex-President Suharto's carnage on a scale worthy of Pol Pot. By 1989, Amnesty International estimated that Indonesia had murdered 200,000 East Timorses, out of a population of 600,000-700,000[b]9[/b].

Indonesia's treatment of religious minorities had already been tested in West Papua. Suharto's anticommunist credentials enabled him to preserve the support of the US government while he terrorized the inhabitants of Dutch New Guinea.

[...]

They soon proceeded to killing people: by September 1973, over 30,000 civilians had been killed by Indonesian troops, the number rising to an estimated 100,000 by 1990. The story was unreported in the U.S. Media, and uncommented upon by the Nixon Administration.

[b]->[/b] They =Zealous Muslim officers.

[...]

East Timor came on the agenda with the disintegration of the Portuguese colonial empire. Indonesia did not have any valid claim to it, but President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, who were visiting Jakata, nevertheless approved the Indonesia invasion of the former Protuguese on December 7 1975. They only asked that the attack be delayed until after their departure. Kissinger told reporters that "the United States understands Indonesia's position on the question of East Timor," and the US abstained in the subsequent U.N. vote condemning the invasion. "The United States wished things to turn out as they did and worked to bring this about. Department of State desired that the United Nations prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook. This task was given to me, and I carried it forward with no inconsiderable success."[b]10[/b] Suharto was delighted to have recieved U.S. support for the invasion because of the Indonesian army's reliance on American Weaponary that, by U.S. law, could only be used for defensive purposes. Washington contiuned to supply arms to Indonesia that were obviously not meant for general defense purposes.[b]S [/b][b]972[/b]

[b]9 [/b][b]972[/b] [i]The same estimate was made by Human Rights Watch in 1989 --- proportionately more deaths than the simultaneous comapign of Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.[/i]
[b]10 [/b] [i]Daniel Patrick Moynihan, then U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, in a cable to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on January 23, 1976.[/i]
[b]S [/b][i]The Sword of the Prophet, Islam: History, Theology, Impact on the World[/i], Serge Trifkovic Ph.D, [i]Regina Orthodox Press[/i], 2002. [i]Pages 213-16, Chapter Five[/i].

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There is nothing to evaluate, its fact.

[theculturewarrior]

I tend to agree with you Morph, re: american journalism and it's shades of propaganda, however, I do understand that that is not an argument.

I can barely stand to watch the news, although I don't think the BBC is much better. I can't stand it when conservatives put the USA on a pedestal and deny whatever evil has been done by american hands. I also can't stand it when liberals try to tear down the conservatives. Both are just as dishonest.

[gonzaga]

I totally defend the right of the 1916 uprising against the british, the irish people were very oppressed, and james connolly etc fought very valiantly (sp?) to win. But, the IRA of recent years due to bombings is very very hard for me to defend, where people are killed innocently, I do not think it is right. Having most of my family come over from Ireland, and family still there, the closeness of 'the troubles' is all too real.

Edited September 22, 2004 by gonzaga

[toledo_jesus]

Morph, to some people the PLO are freedom fighters, but I think the consensus among rational people is that they are terrorists. When a group like the IRA engages in terrorist acts, no matter how noble their original aims, they have lost the status of 'freedom fighters' and should not be glorified. It's a tragedy what's happening in Ireland and you seem to enjoy stirring up controversy. Jumping on the US for its actions doesn't help prove your point. Since when is the US a paragon of virtue?
Your sig is advocating violence against other people...almost explicitly. I find that to be somewhat dangerous, and wrong.

[gonzaga]

I have no respect for people who kill in cold blood, toldeo, your right, these guys are glorified by a lot of people. Although I do agree that the British should pull out of Ireland, a war is not the way to go about it.

Lets not forget, the British army who murdered 14 civilians in Derry, n which the soldiers were given honours by the queen...

[gonzaga]

I think, out of respect, to all those involved in Ireland ( and to us!) you should think about changing your sig...

[Iacobus]

*Clears throat*

Micah, I concur.

I don't love FoxNews, lol, I didn't even read the links. Even the "liberal" news scoruses I like don't talk good about the IRA or any of that. Poltical basis doesn't show as much in US coverage of the "troubles." Therefore, FoxNews is semi crediable on thier coverage of Northen Ireland.

But to dispell any doubt,

PBS reports on them

[quote]Bombing operations were revived in April 1996, and on the 26th of that month the IRA planted one of the biggest bombs ever deployed in London: a 30 lb (13.6 kg) Semtex bomb placed underneath Hammersmith Bridge. Fortunately, the bomb failed to explode due to a faulty detonator. Had it gone off, there could have been significant damage and potential loss of life.[/quote]

[quote]Then, in February 1996, came a major bomb attack at Canary Wharf in London signalling the end of the 17-month ceasefire and claiming the lives of two innocent people.[/quote]

[quote]In a subsequent bomb incident in London, a device that prematurely exploded killed the young IRA man who was about to plant it.[/quote]

From the DoS

[quote]The U.S. Department of State announces today the redesignation of the Real IRA (RIRA and other aliases) as a foreign terrorist organization under United States law. That organization was first designated two years ago, and designations last for a two-year period.[/quote]

Here is a PDF with a short fact sheet on them, [url="http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/31947.pdf"]http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/31947.pdf[/url]

The IRA, both the CIRA and the RIRA, are terrorist orgs. They kill civilians, therefore are terrorists.

[Noel's angel]

Being from Northern Ireland, i am well equipped to tell you Morph that the IRA are a paaramilitary organisation who, yes, fight for freedom and a United Ireland, but they are terrorists who kill innocent civilians for example the terrible tragedy in Omagh a few years ago. They bombed a main street where innocent peopple were out shopping for the day. So pleases change your signature because it is very offensive.

If someone xame and killed your family or friends and I put a picture of them in my signature, im sure u would be angry too.

[gonzaga]

agreed.

[Sojourner]

Ditto.

[Iacobus]

[quote]dUSt says don't be abusin' the sig spot and eat your vegetables.[/quote]

Thanks dUSt.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Sep 22 2004, 09:15 PM'] I tend to agree with you Morph, re: american journalism and it's shades of propaganda, however, I do understand that that is not an argument.

I can barely stand to watch the news, although I don't think the BBC is much better. I can't stand it when conservatives put the USA on a pedestal and deny whatever evil has been done by american hands. I also can't stand it when liberals try to tear down the conservatives. Both are just as dishonest. [/quote]
I saw a short review of a new film: OutFoxed, on the Fox News network, they way they treated a son of a 9/11 victim was disgusting, the host started telling the son, what HIS Father would want, even without knowing him. THey should be shut down.

[MorphRC]

[quote name='gonzaga' date='Sep 22 2004, 10:13 PM'] I totally defend the right of the 1916 uprising against the british, the irish people were very oppressed, and james connolly etc fought very valiantly (sp?) to win. But, the IRA of recent years due to bombings is very very hard for me to defend, where people are killed innocently, I do not think it is right. Having most of my family come over from Ireland, and family still there, the closeness of 'the troubles' is all too real. [/quote]
I still have family in Northern Ireland.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 23 2004, 01:18 AM'] I saw a short review of a new film: OutFoxed, on the Fox News network, they way they treated a son of a 9/11 victim was disgusting, the host started telling the son, what HIS Father would want, even without knowing him. THey should be shut down. [/quote]
I watched that interview. You are terribly misrepresenting it. The man whose father died was acting angrily and irrational (understandably) and was blaming the attacks on the US, etc.

[MorphRC]

[b]The Hypocrisy:[/b]

I cant have this sig, NOT according to dUSt but to Ironmonk, which is hypocritical, coming from an American, that supports his government, that has terrorized nations for 4 decades! One of the worse being Nicargua. If they had a signature of their flag, a army GI, and a cross or some form of religious matte, it would be fine. However if someone supports an Irish republican movement by force, which actually stands up to the 4-5 pre-req's in the Catechism [i]2309[/i], and some innocent people are killed, even if that wasnt the target, its terrorism.

YET. If an American bombs, or bullet kills an innocent person in Iraq, or Afghanistan, its called "COLLATERAL DAMAGE", in other words, an acceptable death for the end result. IE: A means to an end.