I Need Some Help Defending Original Sin

[phatcatholic]

below is a person's response to the verses that i provided to prove the reality of original sin. i think my problem is that i'm just so blown away by this person's novel interpretation that i can't think objectively on the matter. so, your comments would be appreciated. anyway, here's what he said:

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[quote]Gen. 3:14-19
14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
17 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

note: we know that this applies not only Adam and Eve but to all of us, for we too suffer the pains of childbirth, we too must toil the earth (instead of it naturally providing for us), we too return to dust when we die.[/quote]

This does not mean that we all have sin, but are instead affected by the first sin, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Think of it this way. We inheret the ability to know right from wrong, and therefore the ability to sin, an ability that was not present in the beginning. We do not inheret actual sin.

[quote] Job 14:1,4
1 "Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.[/quote]

I am not sure the point of this verse. If it is to support the idea that babies are born unclean, then it is a poor one. Have you ever seen a birth. They are messy.

[quote] Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.[/quote]

Yes, his MOTHER was a sinner, and therefore concieved him as a sinner.

[quote] Rom. 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- [/quote]

Yes, I agree, all MEN sin. Sin requires knowing good from evil, which babies cannot do.

[quote] Rom. 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. [/quote]

Yes, because all men sinned, willfully and knowingly, not because they were born with it already.

[quote] Rom. 5:16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.[/quote]

I think this may help my case more than yours. A man must sin before requiring justification. It only takes one tresspass in any man's life to condemn him.

[quote] Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.[/quote]

Again, made sinners, becasue they know right from wrong. It doesn't say born sinners.


[quote] 1 Cor. 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [/quote]

Can't see how this supports your argument.

[quote] Eph. 2:1-3
1 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [/quote]

This verse says nothing about being born into sin. It simply says you had sinned.





Now, onto my brief rebuttal, which I really shouldn't be doing now, because it is way past my bedtime, and I am supposed to be taking a break from all this debate stuff to get my other work done. I just can't resist a challenge.

First, my verses.

Deut. 24:16 16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.


2 Chronicles 25
4 Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."

And by far the most condemning verse to your point of view I have saved for last.


Ezekiel 18
19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.


The whole chapter 18 in Ezekiel is the Lord's view on justice. It states that a man shall pay for his own sins, and not those of his father, or his father's father, or of Adam himself! We choose to sin, and that is what condemns us. To say otherwise is like hanging you for a murder committed by your father. That would be the height of insanity in our court system. This idea is no different. I am accountable for my actions, and no one elses.



I need not post more. The Bible has answered, and answered convincingly.
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thanks in advance for your help.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[StColette]

I'm sorry I can't respond in full length right now Phat, because I have only a short period before I have to go to my class and take an exam but I'll throw out a few ideas.

First

Romans 5:12-14

12 Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned
13 for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.
14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.

4 [12-21] Paul reflects on the sin of Adam (Genesis 3:1-13) in the light of the redemptive mystery of Christ. Sin, as used in the singular by Paul, refers to the dreadful power that has gripped humanity, which is now in revolt against the Creator and engaged in the exaltation of its own desires and interests. But no one has a right to say, "Adam made me do it," for all are culpable (Romans 5:12): Gentiles under the demands of the law written in their hearts (Romans 2:14-15), and Jews under the Mosaic covenant. Through the Old Testament law, the sinfulness of humanity that was operative from the beginning (Romans 5:13) found further stimulation, with the result that sins were generated in even greater abundance. According to Romans 5:15-21, God's act in Christ is in total contrast to the disastrous effects of the virus of sin that invaded humanity through Adam's crime.

5 [12] Inasmuch as all sinned: others translate "because all sinned," and understand v 13 as a parenthetical remark. Unlike Wisdom 2:24, Paul does not ascribe the entry of death to the devil.

6 [12-20] The law entered in: sin had made its entrance (12); now the law comes in alongside sin. See the notes on Romans 1:18-32; 5:12- 21. Where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more: Paul declares that grace outmatches the productivity of sin.

Umm what else, oh yes, the reason that people sin today is because of original sin. I don't know if this person has forgotten this but through the original sin of Adam and Eve came our tendency to sin. If we were not born with original sin then it would be impossible for us to sin, since through that Original Sin in Gen. came the ability for all mankind to sin.

K umm trying to typing quickly

Verses concerning original sin :

Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin.

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/original_sin.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/original_sin.html[/url]

I'll try and write more when I get home from class, I hope this is somewhat helpful.

God Bless,
Jennie

Edited September 20, 2004 by StColette

[Cure of Ars]

What is the religion the person you are talking too?

[phatcatholic]

he's christian, but i don't know the exact denomination

[StColette]

Okay so he doesn't believe in original sin ? Then how is it that he is able to sin and all people to sin since Original Sin caused the fall of all mankind thus causing us to fall into the temptation to sin.

[phatcatholic]

i'm guessing he will say b/c we are all tempted by satan........but i haven't asked him yet

[StColette]

I think that should be a question asked because without that Original Sin in the beginning there would not have been a fall of mankind. Since it was through Adam and Eve that the first sin was committed it then plagued everyone of the human race. That sin that they committed caused the spiritual death of all mankind but through Christ we are alive again.

[Cure of Ars]

I’m going to echo StColette answer because I think she has hit the nail on the head.

If God is perfect and created us then why are we not able to perfectly do his will even without receiving God’s grace? It is not possible for God to make a faulty humanity so why is humanity faulty? To know good and evil and free will is not enough to explain the brokenness of man. Man is broken and bent and this is probably the one doctrine that can be proven scientifically. Just look in the paper and it is easy to see. We all have our issues. We all have attachment to sin. We all need the Doctor for our souls. We lost something big at the fall. We lost grace. We became spiritually dead because God no longer lived in the human heart. And this is really one of the reasons that Jesus had to come.

So my question to you is, If humanity is not broken and bent by original sin, then why do we need Jesus?

[Theologian in Training]

I have not collected my thoughts as I have one hundred and one other things to do, but I will offer a few reflections:

If there is no Original Sin, then where did death come from? Death was the result of sin.

Actually, I don't have anymore time, however, I would refer you to the following link which is a "Summary of Catechesis on Original Sin" by JPII
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ORSIN.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ORSIN.HTM[/url]

God Bless