Abortion

[carrdero]

[quote]Toledo_jesus writes: True, we should be kind and loving even to the lowliest of God's creatures, for cruelty is not a virtue.[/quote]

Lowliest? This statement carries shades of discrimination and LOVE being dispensed out of pity. I do not think GOD has a list of creatures that are cataloged from superior to inferior. Anyone who thinks that GOD favors one entity over another TRULY does not K(NOW) GOD. Anyone who thinks that GOD “looks down” upon human society does not TRULY K(NOW) GOD.

[quote]Toledo_jesus writes: I could go on, but suffice it to say animals are not humans, and should not be accorded the same status.[/quote]

Yet humans at many times act like animals and animals sometimes act better than humans so what exactly is the status quo that you are basing your judgments on? And do we have the right to judge? That is what this whole debate is about.

[quote]Toledo_jesus writes: To argue that all killing is murder is baseless and ignorant, because we have scriptural backing for the consumption of other life forms.[/quote]

The argument is not that all killing is murder. The point that I am trying to bring out is that murder is death and death is not right or wrong, it happens and we as humans obviously do not understand death (and what comes after it) enough to judge it.

[quote]Toledo_jesus writes: We are His most prized creation.[/quote]

Maybe some year GOD will win a ribbon for humans at the county fair.

[quote]Toledo_jesus writes: Abortion is wrong, no question, as it is the extinguishing of a human life.[/quote]

Here are the choices that you have with this issue.

a) Abortion is murder. Murder is wrong. All murder is wrong
b) Abortion is murder. Murder is death. Death is neither right or wrong and I have no right to judge.
c) Abortion is not wrong and it is not murder because the only thing that is being destroyed is matter. The spiritual soul has never entered into human baby.
d) I can’t decide I need more understanding.

Pick one

[quote]Toledo_jesus writes: It insults the majesty of God and the weight of His sacrifice to equate a chicken with a man. Just as it insults Him to slaughter our own young as if they were so much poultry.[/quote]

Though I do not think that there is anyway to offend or insult a Supreme BEing like GOD I would say that if there is a way to put a dent into the majesty of GOD it would be to hold onto the belief that GOD thinks like humans.

[Craftygrl06]

[quote]Though I do not think that there is anyway to offend or insult a Supreme BEing like GOD [/quote]


If there is no way to offend God then there is no sin....because the very basis of sin is something that offends God, that would be why we say "oh my God i am sorry for my sins because they have OFFENDED you"...is that the point youre trying to prove that there is no sin?

[jasJis]

It's worth repeating:

You stated you believe in God.
You stated you believe in souls.
You stated you believe there are different philosophical measures of being "human". [ie: "when"humanized""]
You stated you believe there are different biological measures of being human. [ie: "when there is brain function"]
These things are clear and distinct measures, though conclusions are subjective, they do have relatively objective measures that can be observed and measured.

Let's follow the reasonable train of thought.

Since you believe in God and souls, then you believe in a theological measure of being human. [ie: "when a soul is present"]
What are the objective measures? A soul has no outward characteristics such as the degree the person interacts with other humans or the amount of electrical activity generated by the brain or heart cells. One must measure the existence of a soul based on the standards (beliefs) one has that led to the conclusion that God and souls even exist. What are the conclusions, no matter where one finds the reasoning?
God exists.
Souls exists.
Souls are not generated by the will of humans. (We don't do it, don't know how, and can't)
Souls must be generated by something else. We can assume God does this since we believe in Him as the Creating Entity.
So we can now conclude God generates and assigns a soul to "something" that is physical when He chooses to.
How do we know the mind of God and know when He chooses?
With most Christians, Jews, and Muslims, we look to Writings of Revalation and our shared communal understanding that has been worked out and concluded by sharing our personal relationships with God as a community and discerning common understanding and identifying constants. In other words, we share our evidence and logically come to conclusions establishing some "facts" about God. Concerning God, these are:
God does it in accordance to His will, not ours.
We can't force God to do anything.
God knows who we are and loves us before we are physically manifested.
Let's us some scientific facts"
Souls do not possess any known, measureable, theoretical, or assumed physical characteristics such as mass, volume, color, scent, etc.
Souls do not interact with or have effect on any matter or physically measureable energies such as creating magnetic fields, bending light waves, creating gravity, creating magnetic fields, etc.
We can know conclude we do not and can not know when a soul is 'assigned' to physical matter, other than it's done when God wants to.
We know that God knows us before we are created in the womb from Scripture and the logical consensus of our human community.

We logically have to conclude we don't know when, other then it can be very early.
We have concluded that a soul makes matter human with theological though (which we have accepted).
The safe conclusion is that we have to accept a soul exists at conception because:
1.) a physical thing has concluded so there is matter that can be assigned a soul.
2.) only God knows when He grants a soul and he does it before we are born.

[carrdero]

[quote]Craftygrl06 writes: If there is no way to offend God then there is no sin....[/quote]

That is CORRECT

[quote]Craftygrl06 writes: because the very basis of sin is something that offends God[/quote]

Well one would have to ask themselves (or GOD). Why would an Almighty Supreme BEing be offended at all? Why would an Almighty Supreme BEing be offended for something we did on earth? What has our mistakes/errors have to do with GOD? What does GOD get out of this?

[quote]Craftygrl06 writes: "...is that the point youre trying to prove that there is no sin? [/quote]

The point that I am trying to PROVE now is that there is no sin through death.

[carrdero]

[quote]JasJis writes: It's worth repeating:
You stated you believe in God.
You stated you believe in souls.
You stated you believe there are different philosophical measures of being "human". [ie: "when"humanized""]
You stated you believe there are different biological measures of being human. [ie: "when there is brain function"]
These things are clear and distinct measures, though conclusions are subjective, they do have relatively objective measures that can be observed and measured.
[/quote]

In case if you missed some of my other posts I think these too are worth repeating
1. Believe all you want, Believing is free.
2. Belief is not TRUTH.
3. Belief is not understanding it is a starting point to UNDERSTANDING
4. Believe all you want BUT ACCEPT NOTHING AS TRUTH until YOU HAVE PROVEN this belief to BE A TRUTH or UNTRUTH.
5. I am not bound by my beliefs, I am recognized for my TRUTHS and my deeds.

Here is a belief:

Everyone begins as a spiritual entity before incarnating into a physical existence. There has never been an entity that has started their existence in the physical. We, as spiritual entities, choose to incarnate into a physical existence. This is called Free Will. GOD does not will this.
It has been explained to me that the development of the human in the mother’s womb is NATURE at work. GOD has created NATURE and GOD created the human system (biological functions) to perform and operate in accordance to His Laws of Nature. NATURE does not judge right or wrong, NATURE performs a function until it cannot perform it anymore.
GOD does not create or assign your experiences or PURPOSE. This is an individual entity’s plan, an individual entity’s life, the individual entity’s experience, the individual entity’s existence. No two experiences or existences are the same. Though you may share experiences with other physical entities your perspectives, your paths or life PURPOSES are quite unique. This is how the soul develops/acquires personality and individualism.
Personality cannot be developed in the womb. Individualism cannot be developed in the womb. Only when we are exposed to the outside physical environment (read: birth) can we develop personality/ individualism/spirituality. Only when we are exposed to the outside physical environment (read: birth) can other humans observe/notice/recognize personality/individualism/spirituality.
A baby’s leg kicking in the womb is not expressing personality/individualism/ spirituality, a baby stirring in the womb is not expressing personality/individualism/spirituality, a baby’s heartbeat in the womb is not expressing personality/individualism/spirituality, DNA though very important in defining the human shell and how will it look and how it will function is not an expression of personality/individualism/spirituality.
In the understanding of abortion there is no personality/individualism/spirituality you are destroying. There is matter. Matter can be modified, created, or destroyed. In the case of abortion, matter is destroyed. If the NATURAL human shell is destroyed before birth, the soul/spirit/personality/individual remains in the spirit world where it originally resides. It is both of these qualities, the spiritual with the physical that makes the human BEing. You cannot have one without the other.


Those are my principles, and if you don´t like them... well, I have others.
- Groucho Marx

[azaelia]

You expect to be taken seriously by quoting Groucho Marx?

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Oct 1 2004, 09:59 AM']

Here are the choices that you have with this issue.

a) Abortion is murder. Murder is wrong. All murder is wrong
b) Abortion is murder. Murder is death. Death is neither right or wrong and I have no right to judge.
c) Abortion is not wrong and it is not murder because the only thing that is being destroyed is matter. The spiritual soul has never entered into human baby.
d) I can’t decide I need more understanding.

Pick one



[/quote]
I choose A.

B. is [u]ignorant[/u] because it equates murder with death. Death is not murder, it is the end of life. Murder is the act of [b]purposefully[/b] terminating [b]human[/b] life.
C. is [u]ignorant[/u] because it denies the humanity of the developing person. a potentially viable person is as valid as a fully developed person. While scientists debate whether potential to live is as good as actual verified viability, the Catholic Church has an answer: [b]yes it is[/b].
D. does not apply to me in the slightest.

carrdero, I'm sorry. From what I understand of your ramblings your concept of death is unhealthy and I would advise seeking professional help, either from the clergy or a secular doctor. Death is a positive good when God uses it, and a positive evil when MAN uses it for his own purposes. It could in fact be said that natural death is God's intent, so death is always good unless caused by man, directly in which case it would be evil. This would bar accidents of course, but that is a tangent. You seem to be bordering on justification of murder, which I suppose is exactly what abortion advocates have been doing for years. I do believe I will pray for you.

[Craftygrl06]

CARDERRO if you think yourself so knowledgable in these incredibly deep topics why would you make patrick star your icon....:)you should have used Gary he's the deep one on that show

[Craftygrl06]

i am too goofy a mood to be in this room....i think i will move myself to open mic

Edited October 2, 2004 by Craftygrl06

[carrdero]

[quote]azaelia writes: You expect to be taken seriously by quoting Groucho Marx?[/quote]

Why not, what preconceived judgment have you reserved for Groucho Marx?

[toledo_jesus]

I don't think Groucho Marx is an authority on Catholicism, unfortunately. That may be where the confusion arises.

[carrdero]

[quote]toledo_jesus writes: I choose A. [/quote]

I commend you on your choice and I respect you on your beliefs. There was a time when I would have chosen A too.

[quote]toledo_jesus writes: carrdero, I'm sorry. From what I understand of your ramblings your concept of death is unhealthy [/quote]

Unhealthy in what way?

[quote]toledo_jesus writes: and I would advise seeking professional help, [/quote]

Define professional? Should I talk to a mortician? They deal a lot in death. Who am I going to go to that has PROOF of death? John Edwards?

[quote]toledo_jesus writes: either from the clergy or a secular doctor.[/quote]

[b]I am [/b] the clergy and a secular doctor will only give me a prescription for something my body probably doesn’t require.

[quote]toledo_jesus writes: Death is a positive good when God uses it, and a positive evil when MAN uses it for his own purposes.[/quote]

Death is death. When you die it is not like you can hang around the physical to debate what is positive “good” or positive “evil” about your death. When you die it is not like you can bring your case to trial to justify that your life was cut short or that you are entitled to a few “good years”. You have passed on. The humans who eventually do carry on these "justifications" for the deceased use it to suit their own or someone else's purposes and not the entity that has passed on.

[quote]toledo_jesus writes: It could in fact be said that natural death is God's intent, so death is always good unless caused by man, directly in which case it would be evil.[/quote]

Actually natural death is a paramount belief amongst many people that I have polled and talked to about death. Many people are still under the belief that they are immortal while experiencing a physical existence. Many people, if they had a choice, would prefer to die in their own bed at the age of 71. Some people feel that this is unrealistic goal to reach and do not care when they die as long as their death does not include much pain or suffering. Plane crashes, dying for someone else, suicide (it’s a control issue) are also popular choices.

[quote]toledo_jesus writes: You seem to be bordering on justification of murder[/quote]

What I seem to be bordering on is that there is no justification of death no matter how someone dies. Once you have accepted the TRUTH that “Everyone has to die, everyone has to exit this world in some way” you will also see that there is no justification for death either.

[quote]toledo_jesus writes: I do believe I will pray for you. [/quote]

I appreciate your prayers but if you could hold off for a few days I have yet to empty my inbox from everyone else’s prayers that were sent to me.

Edited October 2, 2004 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]Craftygrl06 writes: CARDERRO if you think yourself so knowledgable in these incredibly deep topics why would you make patrick star your icon....:)you should have used Gary he's the deep one on that show[/quote]

You should never judge a book by its avatar. Actually there is a not a day that goes by that I have not wondered the same thing. I often wonder if people do identify with the character that it is probably the reason why some people are not taking me seriously. But unfortunately (or fortunately), Patrick is my first name (I was named after a Catholic priest) and you have to admit, Patrick the Starfish as moronic as he is, certainly does get the best lines in the show.

[Guest Aluigi]

ppl dont take u seriously because you wrote your own Bible and claim it was coauthored by God. we can all clearly see u as the classic making up yopur own belief type person who relies on nothing but wat u want to be true.

[toledo_jesus]

I was unaware you had broken so formally with the Church. I'll pray for you some more.