Abortion

[azaelia]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 25 2004, 11:47 PM']
What helps me to understand the human entity is that I identify it as a piece of space (land). But it is the only real physical property that we can actually call ourselves. I liken the human body as a house, a sometimes comfortable shelter a sometimes burdensome weight (I am, of course talking about waking up and aging), with utilities that are free but you still have to keep them up (I believe we all “renovate”). I don’t think that an honest soul encased in a human shell belongs exclusively to GOD or any one entity, I sincerely believe it belongs to everyONE-even through death. [/quote]
If this statement is true, then murder is permissable. It's like saying "I can burn down your house if I want. It's only a house after all."

[carrdero]

[quote]azaelia writes: If this statement is true, then murder is permissable.[/quote]

The statement is TRUE and murder is permissible. Read the newspapers about the war. Soldiers are killing and getting killed. The jails are full of murderers. Next time you sit down to dinner or visit a restaurant and meat is being served think about how that was obtained? Look no further for the fact that murder is permissible than this debate. Murder is going on all the time. Over 2 billion entities (humans, plants, fish, insects, animals) die a day I would assume over one third of that amount is caused by murder.

[quote]azaelia writes: It's like saying "I can burn down your house if I want. It's only a house after all." [/quote]

What could be the reason from stopping you from doing so?

Is it:
a) a fear of GOD’s Law
b) a fear of Humankind’s Law
c) You just have no desire to do something like that.
d) All of the above
e) You do not K(NOW) where I live

What is the reason that is stopping you?

I must admit that even if anyone decided to murder me, one of the most positive benefits of actually K(NOW)ing who GOD is; is that there is no fear in death.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

A clump of human cells is a human. A tadpole is simply a young frog.

[azaelia]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 27 2004, 06:20 PM'] The jails are full of murderers. [/quote]
Hmm, could that be because it's ILLEGAL?

[quote]
What could be the reason from stopping you from doing so?

Is it:
a) a fear of GOD’s Law
b) a fear of Humankind’s Law
c) You just have no desire to do something like that.
d) All of the above
e) You do not K(NOW) where I live

What is the reason that is stopping you?[/quote]

Fear has nothing to do with it. It's not my house. I have no right to burn it down.

[carrdero]

Carrdero writes: The jails are full of murderers.

[quote]azaelia writes: Hmm, could that be because it's ILLEGAL?[/quote]

I K(NOW) it’s illegal, you K(NOW) it’s illegal, the men who committed those murders knew it was illegal, didn’t prevent them from committing murder did it? Are soldiers who killed in the war awaiting trial for their crimes when they arrive home? Do meat butchers who slay livestock have police waiting at their house when they come home from work?

[quote]azaelia writes: Fear has nothing to do with it. It's not my house. I have no right to burn it down.[/quote]

Nor do you have the right to judge death as right or wrong.

There are three TRUTHS ONE can REMEMBER when it comes to death.
1. REMEMBER, everyONE has to die; everyONE has to go out of this world in some way.
[b]2. REMEMBER, there is no judgment in death, no right or wrong in death.[/b]
3. REMEMBER, the physical existence you are living now is not your home.

[Luthien]

Death is not the same as murder.

Murder is the taking of a life.

Death is the body dying.

God only has the right to take life.

We have no right to take it, and God does not use us to kill.







You have an odd philosophy.

[Socrates]

[quote] Now the cells at early age are just like normal body cells. This is why people often times say it's only the potential to be a human. But it does have its own dna and it is growing. But it's still just like normal body cells. A part of me sees some reason to the dispute the humanity in every sense of the word of the baby.[/quote]

If the cells of an unborn baby are like "nomal human body cells" that would seem like pretty good evidence that it is a human being! I'm made of normal human body cells too (though perhaps my humanity is not beyond "reasonable dispute" ).

You seem to be suggesting that the unborn are not human because they are not fully developed. But then, neither are born babies. Many babies are actually aborted late in their development when they are not much less developed than young infants. (In fact, pro-abortion atheist philospher Peter Singer uses this to argue that infanticide should be legal!) By this line of logic, there is no certain time when a human being becomes "human."

The facts:

The unborn child is alive.
It is human.
It is not a part of the mother's body (though still dependent on her)
Therefore the unborn is a human being.

These are basic facts. This is not a "word game." This is defining what it means to be human.

To say that a human being must be of a certain development to have a right to life is arbitrary and and leads to a "slippery slope" in which other criteria are used to determine whether a human being's life is worthy of protection.

Sanctity of human life is what it all comes down to.
Atheists, etc. will always tend to have a different morality. To the atheist, afterall, we're all really just worthless blobs of protoplasm with no intrinsic value.

These two "moralities" are in fact incompatible, and are currently at war with one another in our culture.

[Socrates]

[accidentally posted twice, sorry]

Edited September 28, 2004 by Socrates

[carrdero]

[quote]Luthien writes: We have no right to take it, and God does not use us to kill.[/quote]

Really? If we are to believe the God in the BIBLE is the one TRUE GOD then Numbers 21:23-26, 32-35 says differently. I believe this event happened after GOD gave them the Commandment NOT TO KILL. There are other examples if you require them.

[MichaelFilo]

Carrderro, in all fairness, those people who were killed were still being killed by God's will. Since God gave the command it isn't people choosing who dies, but God is. The people are His tools.

God bless and Mary protect,

Mikey

[azaelia]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 28 2004, 12:22 PM']
Really? If we are to believe the God in the BIBLE is the one TRUE GOD then Numbers 21:23-26, 32-35 says differently. I believe this event happened after GOD gave them the Commandment NOT TO KILL. There are other examples if you require them. [/quote]
So where in the bible does it say that God gaves us the right to destroy our children?

[carrdero]

[quote]MichaelFilo writes: Carrderro, in all fairness[/quote]

In all fairness this may be an inappropriate way to start a sentence that is about to justify murder.

[quote]MichaelFilo writes: those people who were killed were still being killed by God's will.[/quote]

Then why didn’t GOD do it Himself? I thought GOD’s will was Thou Shall Not Kill.

[quote]MichaelFilo writes: Since God gave the command it isn't people choosing who dies, but God is. The people are His tools.[/quote]

From my perspective it seems GOD hasn’t called off His orders/commands/will of murder and is still shopping earth for His “tools”. What does an Almighty GOD need tools for anyway?

Though this is an intersting topic I had just wanted to respond to Luthien's last comment about God's use for killing. It was good hearing from you again Michael.

[carrdero]

[quote]azaelia writes: So where in the bible does it say that God gaves us the right to destroy our children? [/quote]

No Bible that I can REMEMBER reading (or writing).

[azaelia]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 28 2004, 04:52 PM']
No Bible that I can REMEMBER reading (or writing). [/quote]
My point exactly.

[carrdero]

Though I wouldn't rely on my memory to exact your points.