jasJis Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Unless one believes humanity is just a huge 'cosmic accident of heat and protiens' then you can't deny that a human life inherently has dignity and worth. The second point is if we are PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL or BOTH (embodied spirits). The Church teaches we are embodied spirits. We are real and the same person, both spiritually and physically. The fact that our physical self is important too lies in Jesus being resurrected both Body and Soul and that we will have Glorified Bodies. This leads us to the conclusion that both our physical and spiritual selves are inherently dignified. We cannot disrespect our physical body without disrespecting our spiritual self and visa-versa. The question about "when" destruction of certain cells/molecules is abortion is being answered "when" it has a soul. Since we know the physical and spiritual identity is connected, we know that we are doing injustice to a soul when we do injustice ot a body. This entire debate is based on the selfish hope that we can destroy some cells before it is a person with a soul. The act of destruction or prevention of specific cells being imbued with a soul is an affront against the very idea of the potential 'being' of an individual. Just the contemplation is destructive of the dignity of humanity in all stages of 'being', whether physical life or spiritual life. Since the soul has no mass, weight, color, scent, or physically discernable character, we cannot know without some question, when it is or isn't present in cells. In respect to humanity's God given inherent dignity, our answer should be on the cautious side of giving dignity to all that "might" be human. Strictly defining "human" with temporal measurement is denying the fact of our spiritual dignity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azaelia Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.." Jeremiah 1:5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 [quote]Theoketos writes: What if you took a baby out the womb and put it back in?[/quote] Once you take a baby out of the womb you cannot return it. That entity’s life, (read: physical existence) whatever shape it takes begins then. One of the charities that GOD and I work with is the March Of Dimes and they are progressing towards research that will help save premature births by simulating womb-like conditions so that children are given a few moments of maturity to help it develop. It cannot replace the mother’s womb but it may give babies a better chance toward survival. [quote]Theoketos writes: Drawing the line at birth is arbitrary. Ask God about it. [/quote] Question: Dear GOD, Abortion. What do you think? – cannie1 Answer: I K(NOW) you cannot discontinue the existence of a soul through the act of abortion. The human shell may BE destroyed, but the entity that was planned to occupy it is not. Any entities that choose to incarnate into the physical realm do not incarnate into a body that is planned for termination. REMEMBER that ALL matter can BE modified, created, and destroyed, but the soul remains forever, if that is what the soul desires. Well I didn’t actually ask the question but I did document and publish the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 what are you talking about carrdero? it is not a Shell, i have no earthly idea where you got that from, its a unborn baby......have you not studied science? and medicine? im sorry but a shell cannot do things and moev on its own [quote]With abortion I just do not believe that there is an entity occupying the human shell until birth. I guess a sort of reversed example could be likened to a chicken that is beheaded. The entity has long passed from the physical existence and all that remains is a temporary active shell. [/quote] you say you dont believe there is a person inside there? the baby is sucking his thumb, can kick and eat, have perferances in food, can recognize she/he's mother by her voice, have a heart beat, a fully developed brain and body, unique fingerprints......even has his/her own DREAMS!! not to mention has 2 arms, 2 eyes, a nose, 2 ears, a mouth, , 10 fingers, 10 toes.....yup! it passes the human test for me! fact is she/he is a Baby, created by GOD from the moment of conception...... its murder which is [b]wrong[/b] GOD is the giver of LIFE, therefore when we draw our dying breathe it is ONLY He who takes it....and no one else.. when did you get authority to say when LIFE was life? the fact is you dont....God created human LIFE and since it is hte great thing ever go be given, should not and cannot be killed.... just because it doesnt meet you defintion of a human hardly changes the fact that it is.... i have not earthly idea where your getting your "answers" but we do got something from him written in stone from GOD Himself..... [b]Thou shall not kill[/b]---GOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeteenchick527 Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 yepyep lil flower... to me there is no way u can say its not a baby...and so therefore since it is a baby it is a human...and therefore diserves respect and the right to live....since when did God let us determine who lives and who doesnt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 (edited) [quote]thedude writes:Everybody does die, but that is definately not a justification for/nor related to abortion in anyway whatsoever.[/quote] Death does not need justification. When it is your time to go, whenever that moment may be, it is time to go. You can’t avoid death. Whether a baby is aborted or if it dies prematurely how do you justify that? In the case of the premature baby are you going to accuse the doctor of murder because he could not save the child’s life? Are you going to bring the mother to justice because she knowingly had a health condition that would bring on premature conditions? [quote]thedude writes: A "shell"? What is this "shell"?[/quote] The human shell, it’s casing. The model your spirit/soul is occupying presently. At a funeral, if it is an open casket, that is a shell of a human. The spirit/soul is not in it, it is just a shell. [quote]thedude writes: How can one form of life (or an inanimate object) naturally and spontaneously generate into another form of life? [/quote] I think I understand your question but if I am mistaken please let me know. The human form that is in a women’s womb is not inanimate, in fact it is responding quite actively (read:naturally) with the help of it’s mother. The identity or entity (soul) I believe connects/fuses/merges once it is brought out into our environment. Though there are some days we all wish we could crawl back into a womb it is not necessarily our natural (common) environment for a human existing or BEing. Edited September 23, 2004 by carrdero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeteenchick527 Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 [quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 23 2004, 04:33 PM'] Death does not need justification. When it is your time to go, whenever that moment may be, it is time to go. You can’t avoid death. Whether a baby is aborted or if it dies prematurely how do you justify that? In the case of the premature baby are you going to accuse the doctor of murder because he could not save the child’s life? Are you going to bring the mother to justice because she knowingly had a health condition that would bring on premature conditions? [/quote] of course we arent gonna say that a doctor commited a murder because he/she couldnt save the baby...bc that isnt murder....abortion however is bc it is a choice that the mother made to kill her child....if she miscarries she is not murdering her child if she commits an abortion she is purposefully killing her child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 [b]carrdero says[/b] [quote]i think I understand your question but if I am mistaken please let me know. The human form that is in a women’s womb is not inanimate, in fact it is responding quite actively (read:naturally) with the help of it’s mother. The identity or entity (soul) I believe connects/fuses/merges once it is brought out into our environment. Though there are some days we all wish we could crawl back into a womb it is not necessarily our natural (common) environment for a human existing or BEing. [/quote] sorry but a baby that is also born also depends on the help of s/he's mother to survive (food) does it not mean its not life then? just beacuse something is dependant doesn't mean its not life..... what about those who are in a coma? Or those who need assistance? Life is LIFE....a heartbeat, breathing...life within.... [b]carredo says [/b] [quote]The human shell, it’s casing. The model your spirit/soul is occupying presently. At a funeral, if it is an open casket, that is a shell of a human. The spirit/soul is not in it, it is just a shell. [/quote] a body in a casket no longer has LIFE within and therefore cannot be compared to a unborn baby in the womb who is [b]FULL of LIFE[/b]. pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azaelia Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 [quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 23 2004, 07:33 PM'] Whether a baby is aborted or if it dies prematurely how do you justify that? In the case of the premature baby are you going to accuse the doctor of murder because he could not save the child’s life? Are you going to bring the mother to justice because she knowingly had a health condition that would bring on premature conditions? [/quote] A Premature baby that dies dies of natural causes, NOT by being scraped from the uterine wall and sliced into peices by a loop-shaped knife, or forced to die from salt poisoning, having it's skin burned away. Abortion is disgusting and terrible. [quote]The human shell, it’s casing. The model your spirit/soul is occupying presently. At a funeral, if it is an open casket, that is a shell of a human. The spirit/soul is not in it, it is just a shell.[/quote] We are temples of the Holy Spirit. NOT "shells". When our souls go to heaven, our bodies are still considered sacred and will be resurrected on the last day to be reunited with our souls in a glorified state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 [quote]Death does not need justification. When it is your time to go, whenever that moment may be, it is time to go. You can’t avoid death. Whether a baby is aborted or if it dies prematurely how do you justify that? In the case of the premature baby are you going to accuse the doctor of murder because he could not save the child’s life? Are you going to bring the mother to justice because she knowingly had a health condition that would bring on premature conditions?[/quote] This is unrelated. A child dieing naturally is not a sin or however you're trying to portray it. [quote]The human shell, it’s casing. The model your spirit/soul is occupying presently. At a funeral, if it is an open casket, that is a shell of a human. The spirit/soul is not in it, it is just a shell.[/quote] The body. [quote]I think I understand your question but if I am mistaken please let me know. The human form that is in a women’s womb is not inanimate, in fact it is responding quite actively (read:naturally) with the help of it’s mother. The identity or entity (soul) I believe connects/fuses/merges once it is brought out into our environment. Though there are some days we all wish we could crawl back into a womb it is not necessarily our natural (common) environment for a human existing or BEing.[/quote] So if it isn't inanimate, it must be alive. If it is alive, it must be a human (not a frog). If it is a human, then abortion must be murder. Murder is a sin. Dieing isn't murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 (edited) [quote]JasJis writes: Unless one believes humanity is just a huge 'cosmic accident of heat and protiens' then you can't deny that a human life inherently has dignity and worth.[/quote] I do not subscribe to accidents and coincidences. A human life (and I will also like to include other entities like plants and animals) does have dignity and worth but there is no measuring scale that we can apply to life. If you live for a moment, let’s say a day to a month, or if you live out your expected life span, any life you lived has dignity and worth. [quote]JasJis writes: The second point is if we are PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL or BOTH (embodied spirits). The Church teaches we are embodied spirits. We are real and the same person, both spiritually and physically. The fact that our physical self is important too lies in Jesus being resurrected both Body and Soul and that we will have Glorified Bodies. This leads us to the conclusion that both our physical and spiritual selves are inherently dignified. We cannot disrespect our physical body without disrespecting our spiritual self and visa-versa.[/quote] I believe we are spiritual entities awaiting a physical existence. We choose to come to a physical existence. We choose who our parents will be, we choose which experiences we are going to experience, we choose when we will die and how. It is a grand plan and it goes a long way to show how much free will GOD actually grants us. If we choose to incarnate into a physical shell and the mother has already chosen that she is going to terminate that shell through abortion (for whatever reason that might be) that spiritual entity is not going to incarnate into a physical existence because there is no physical existence to experience. That is just my belief/theory. [quote]JasJis writes: The question about "when" destruction of certain cells/molecules is abortion is being answered "when" it has a soul. Since we know the physical and spiritual identity is connected, we know that we are doing injustice to a soul when we do injustice ot a body.[/quote] Like GOD has mentioned in that question by “cannie1” "matter can be modified, created, and destroyed, but the soul remains forever, if that is what the soul desires." If I cut off my finger, that little piece of finger is not me. I can continue to cut off pieces of my body until I cease to exist. That pile of cut off body pieces is not me but my spirit/soul will continue to exist. [quote]JasJis writes: This entire debate is based on the selfish hope that we can destroy some cells before it is a person with a soul. The act of destruction or prevention of specific cells being imbued with a soul is an affront against the very idea of the potential 'being' of an individual. Just the contemplation is destructive of the dignity of humanity in all stages of 'being', whether physical life or spiritual life.[/quote] Though I will agree with you that couples should be more concerned about taking better precautions during sex so that this event does not have to happen, I can’t help but wonder if this is a me having a common human reaction or if I am ignorant of the TRUTH that this woman (or couple) needed to experience the emotions that accompany this procedure for spiritual growth/awareness/development. I guess it is very hard for us to discern. [quote]JasJis writes: In respect to humanity's God given inherent dignity, our answer should be on the cautious side of giving dignity to all that "might" be human.[/quote] Yes, I too am a big believer in BEing respectful and considerate to all life as well. Edited September 23, 2004 by carrdero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 [b]carrdero says [/b] [quote]If I cut off my finger, that little piece of finger is not me. I can continue to cut off pieces of my body until I cease to exist. That pile of cut off body pieces is not me but my spirit/soul will continue to exist.[/quote] your finger does NOT make up another human..... an unborn child does..... human life in its earliest forms...... peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 carrdero, Did you write the Interview with God book? Or just a fan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 [quote]thedude writes: carrdero,Did you write the Interview with God book? Or just a fan?[/quote] I co-authored the book with GOD (or the entity that says it was GOD) but I have been a fan of GOD all my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 [quote]azaelia writes: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.." Jeremiah 1:5 [/quote] This is a very good scripture to indicate that we were indeed spiritual entities with GOD before becoming physical entities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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