Bush Is Making A Pro-life Difference!

[BLAZEr]

I think its awfully curious to suggest that Bush isn't concerned with what is best for America. I think that thou judgest his heart, which is for God alone to judge. But never the less, I would ask . . . just who out there do you believe is looking out for America's best interest? It would be laughable for you to suggest any of the 10 or so candidates on the Democratic ticket, who are just arguing over which of them would kill more babies through abortion and Dr. Death, from Vermont is advocating killing the old too.

I think if Dorothy Day were still alive today you would find her sitting outside in front of a Planned Parenthodd office trying to stop girls from going inside.

It's always very difficult for me to get into these types of discussions, because I did not vote for George Bush, I do not think he is a saint, and I disagree with many of his policy decisions. But I still think he is doing a good job, that he is sincere in his leadership of this country and that he is trying, as best he understands how, to encourage a culture of life. Judge him by his words and actions, and do not impute your bias into his heart.

Besides, if you read that article more closely you will see that the director of the so-called "pro-life" clinic also says that she would like to see abortion as part of the AIDS agenda in Nigeria. Why would anyone who teaches only Natural Family Planning advocate abortion as part of a way to tackle AIDS in Africa? She is a phony liar, as far as I'm concerened. Of course, the media would do its best to make it seem like this decision to cut off funding to abortion supporters is "hurting" the good guys too.

I will tell you this. Abortion is illegal in Nigeria, so this woman isn't performing abortions because she can't do it legally. Her lobbying I'm sure is to try to get abortion made legal so that her clinic can do what it really wants to do, and won't be limited by the Nigerian law. I for one am glad she is closing her doors. I hope many more like her are forced to close down.

[Deeds]

I'm not his biggest fan, but I agree that Bush is taking steps in the right direction over abortion. However, I don't consider him to be pro-life. Opposing abortion except in cases of rape or incest is illogical. Pro-lifers value the life of the foetus - a foetus conceived through rape or incest is every bit as valuable as one conceived through consensual sex. It suggests he's not anti-abortion for the right reasons. I do applaud him for his efforts though.

Would you call someone pro-life if they opposed abortion in all cases, opposed the death penalty, but they used contraception?

Because, quite frankly contraception 45% of the time is abortifacient . . . and even when it is not causing early abortions it is still closed to life . . .

It depends. If they were using non-abortifacient contraception then it's perfectly compatible with being pro-life. If they were using abortifacient contraception and didn't realise it hindered implantation then yes, it's also possible to be pro-life. But if they were using abortifacient contraception and were fully aware of its effects then no, I would not call them pro-life because they would be supporting early abortions.

I am pro-life and also agree with the death penalty in certain cases.

Could you maybe elaborate a wee bit more? :)

[Good Friday]

First of all, I will say again that I don't intend to have a long drawn-out debate on this subject. I had one once before, which did little to no good for anyone here or for myself. At this point, I have a grandmother who is dying and a family that is falling apart, and right now that takes precedence over the extremist ideology that is so prevalent on this phorum.

I think its awfully curious to suggest that Bush isn't concerned with what is best for America. I think that thou judgest his heart, which is for God alone to judge.

The only thing I'm going to say about this is that there is already a massive about of judging going on here, and most people only seem to get upset about it when people they like are being judged. Now of course, there are exceptions. Azriel and a few others don't like anyone to be judged. But, for the most part, it's okay to judge here, just as long as the person being judged isn't someone that the extremist majority adores.

But never the less, I would ask . . . just who out there do you believe is looking out for America's best interest? It would be laughable for you to suggest any of the 10 or so candidates on the Democratic ticket, who are just arguing over which of them would kill more babies through abortion and Dr. Death, from Vermont is advocating killing the old too.

Did I mention the Democratic candidates? Did I endorse one of them? This is precisely why it's futile to debate politics with you people, because as soon as I depart from Republican ideology I am ipso facto a Democrat. I doubt that anyone in our government is looking out for this country. I'm not concerned with them, I'm concerned with the fact that Bush has been set up as an idol among extremist Christians of all denominations. I'm concerned with "admonishing the sinner," i.e. those who give Bush the adoration that is due to God alone.

I think if Dorothy Day were still alive today you would find her sitting outside in front of a Planned Parenthodd office trying to stop girls from going inside.

I think it's inappropriate to speak for the dead who are not here to speak for themselves. Perhaps she would be sitting outside a Planned Parenthood clinic, but I doubt that she would do it to the exclusion of helping all the other poor and suffering throughout the world. That is what Bush does, and that is what extremist Christians worldwide are doing. And we wonder why the world is so adverse to Christianity? Gee, I wonder.

It's always very difficult for me to get into these types of discussions, because I did not vote for George Bush, I do not think he is a saint, and I disagree with many of his policy decisions. But I still think he is doing a good job, that he is sincere in his leadership of this country and that he is trying, as best he understands how, to encourage a culture of life. Judge him by his words and actions, and do not impute your bias into his heart.

By his words and actions, I do not see what you see. Of course that makes me automatically wrong, because the extremist position is that they must be right and all others must be wrong, all of the time. I think he's done a terrible job. Do you know how many people there are without jobs right now? How many people are living at or below poverty level? 12 million children, I forget how many adults. Is this the culture of life that the extremist wing that has seized the Catholic Church and so many other churches is promoting?

I'll tell ya, as I sit here cold this morning, already in September, wondering if my family will have a furnace this winter... I am not touched by Bush's brilliant leadership and pro-life position.

As far as your preposterous ideas about the left-wing media conspiracy, so be it. If there is a conspiracy, I hope it beats the right-wing conspiracy, because at least then perhaps I won't be freezing.

[vianney]

ha ha im sorry for laughing but you cant possibly blaim your hardships on the Republican party. And all the arguments you used are subjective.

But, for the most part, it's okay to judge here, just as long as the person being judged isn't someone that the extremist majority adores.

Subjective

[Good Friday]

ha ha im sorry for laughing but you cant possibly blaim your hardships on the Republican party.

May I ask why not?

And all the arguments you used are subjective.

So be it. I'm not here to convince anybody, only to give my opinion. I know now, after having been here for quite some time, that it's futile to try to convince most here of anything outside of the extremist Catholic range of beliefs.

As for my subjective argument about the judging that goes on here... it's only subjective because I don't waste my time digging through the phorum for the objective proof that shows some of the same people who have told me not to judge Bush judging others they don't like.

[JP2Iloveyou]

First of all, I will say again that I don't intend to have a long drawn-out debate on this subject.  I had one once before, which did little to no good for anyone here or for myself.  At this point, I have a grandmother who is dying and a family that is falling apart, and right now that takes precedence over the extremist ideology that is so prevalent on this phorum.

I will pray for your family.

[vianney]

point taken. But a good opinion has to have a reliable premise. Other wise the opinion is not valid. (Logic Philosophy)

[Good Friday]

JP2 said:

I will pray for your family.

Thank you.

Vianney said:

But a good opinion has to have a reliable premise. Other wise the opinion is not valid.

Everyone here already thinks my opinion is invalid if it departs from theirs in any way, so why waste my time with a reliable premise, only for them to find it invalid anyway? lol.

[BLAZEr]

Chesterton has a quote, and I wish I could find it, about the insane. He says something to the effect that "if a man believes he is in an ice-cube, everything you say to him only serves as further proof he is in a icecube and you are crazy." . . . I'm not doing it Justice, its in Orthodoxy in the chapter on "the Maniac" but I don't have the book handy to look it up. Anyway,

I think that thou dost protesteth too much, GF. I never claimed to be a Republican or an idealogue or an right wing extremist. In fact, I would say that I am none of those things. I am a Christian and I do my best to feed the poor, welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned, but I also take seriously the other corporal works of mercy like instruct the ignorant and admonish the sinner. Dorothy Day did the same things. In fact, I am quite a devotee of Dorothy Day and have read almost all of her writings (she was quite prolific and I'm not done yet, but I'm only 24). Dorothy has set the ground work for all of my social action. In fact, if you want to send me an email, I can probably help find you a heater and some money to pay for the electricity or oil o whatever it will take to power it. I have a lot of friends in a lot of places and I'm sure we could do something to help you.

That said, I do not think it is an "extremist" position to suggest that someone is a reasonable leader who cares about his country and is doing the best he can to help it become a nation with a culture of life. I am not by any means suggesting he is infallible, but I would say that overall George Bush has done a respectable job as president. I did not mean to suggest that you were a Democrat or supported the Democrats. I was merely trying to suggest that as an alternative to Bush, the only likely person will be a Democrat (that's the sad state of our 2 party system) and that none of them seem to be the least bit concerned for the well being of our country. They just seem to hate George W Bush. It's really getting more and more ridiculous listening to them.

Also, there is quite a bit of difference from making a judgement than from judging. I think everyone should make judgements about other people. In fact in another phorum I did so about a woman who claimed to run a pro-life absitence program but wanted the right to lobby for abortion rights in Nigeria. I called this woman a fraud, because anyone who runs a "pro-Life" anything and advocates abortion lobbying is terribly inconsistent and fraudulent one way or the other.

Now, you can try to offer me evidence to the contrary and attempt to sway my judgement of this woman. That is completely fair and praiseworthy. Similarly if you suggest that Bush is a fraud because he supports the death penalty I can try to sway your opinion through similar means. No harm done.

What worries me is when one person tries to impute upon another person malice, malintent, and unscrupulosity of motive in EVERY decision. I believe that to be judgemental. Just my take on things. May God Bless you Good Friday, may God Bless you at every moment of every day.

[vianney]

Everyone here already thinks my opinion is invalid if it departs from theirs in any way, so why waste my time with a reliable premise, only for them to find it invalid anyway? lol.

I dont think that. But I TRY to base my opinions off what the Church says and off truth. Not subjective truth but objective truth.

[vianney]

Everyone here already thinks my opinion is invalid if it departs from theirs in any way, so why waste my time with a reliable premise, only for them to find it invalid anyway? lol.

I dont think that. But I TRY to base my opinions off what the Church says and off truth. Not subjective truth but objective truth.

[Azriel]

Azriel and a few others don't like anyone to be judged.  But, for the most part, it's okay to judge here, just as long as the person being judged isn't someone that the extremist majority adores.

Did someone use my name in vain?

Just kidding, I just like to see someone reference me. On with your debate.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Sorry to be off topic but has anyone read the plannedparenthood website? They have a section for kids and it teaches about having safe sex and when it's ok to have sex blah blah blah. I found it very offensive and I think if more people knew what it was teaching kids it would be offline.

[littleflower+JMJ]

Sorry to be off topic but has anyone read the plannedparenthood website?  They have a section for kids and it teaches about having safe sex and when it's ok to have sex blah blah blah.  I found it very offensive and I think if more people knew what it was teaching kids it would be offline.

no but i've seen their HOliday Cards (*note how i didn't say Christmas Cards because their anything BUT christian!!!)

and that alone got me SOOOO angry.

they need help adn prayers.

+JMJ

[Good Friday]

Just kidding, I just like to see someone reference me. On with your debate.

You're welcome. The debate is over though. Blazer had good points, none of which I'm going to argue. In most people's cases here, to argue this point any further would be like arguing with the wall. That may not be the case with Blazer, but with the others... it's just not worth it. Besides, if I continue I know I'll be suspended, so I'm going to stop now. :blink: