Explain Proverbs 23:12-14

[Lil Red]

Could you please explain these verses? I'm talking with someone who was beaten as a child, and her father would quote Scripture, particularly these verses, while beating her. Please help me to help her.

[StColette]

Proverbs 23:13-14 speaks of discipline which in itself is not a bad thing. But there is a difference between the discipline that is described in Proverbs 23:13-14 and child abuse. Disciplining a child is not to hurt the child physically nor emotionally but rather to teach them right from wrong. Child abuse is both physically and emotionally hurting to a child. Proverbs 23:13-14 does not condone the abuse of a child.

Child abuse can also lead to children becoming very angry people as they grow up. The Bible is very clear on the matter of fathers ( or mothers ) causing their children to become angry because of something that their parents did to them.

Eph. 6:4

4 And you, fathers, provoke not your children to anger: but bring them up in the discipline and correction of the Lord. (DRV)

Col. 3:21

21 Fathers, provoke not your children to indignation, lest they be discouraged. (DRV)

All things became new with Christ. With Him came the preaching of love and kindness. This does not mean that there shouldn't be discipline but rather that discipline should be out of love rather than out of anger. When a child is disciplined out of anger it does not learn anything from the punishment but fear. Disciplining a child the correct way with love can teach the child that what they did was wrong but they are still loved by their parents. Child abuse in no way enforces in the child's mind that their parents love them but rather that the child becomes terrified of their parents. God disciplines each of us because He loves us not out of anger.

[Lil Red]

thanks, StColette!

[StColette]

you're welcome

[phatcatholic]

first i want to compile the information that is available on these verses, and then bring it all together in one summary. this post will be on Prov 23:13. my second post will be on what has yet to be said regarding Prov 23:14. my third post will be my summary.

[b]Coffman's Commentary on the Old Testament[/b]

Verses 13, 14
Withhold not correction from the child; [For] if thou beat him with the rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, And shalt deliver his soul from Sheol.

If there had been any doubt about God's commanding his followers to discipline their sons and daughters, this passage would have removed it. The two verses here are parallel; and that clarifies the meaning of Prov. 23:13. At first glance, it might seem that the parent is to beat his son within in an inch of death; but, "This does not mean that the scourging will not kill him," but it means that, "If you chastise him you will save him from the doom of the rebellious son (Deuteronomy 31:18-21)."F4 The following rendition obscures the true meaning:


"Do not hesitate to discipline a youth; Though you beat him with a stick, he will not die; Indeed you should beat him with a stick, And so save his life from Sheol."F5
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[b]The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible[/b]

Proverbs 23:13

Withhold not correction from the child…
When he has committed a fault, and correction is necessary; for to spare it is the ruin of the child, and no proof of true affection in the parent, but the reverse; see (Proverbs 13:24) (19:18) ; for, [if] thou beatest him with a rod, he shall not die;
if he be beaten moderately, there is no danger of his dying under the rod, or with the stripes given him; besides, such moderate and proper corrections may be a means of preserving him from such crimes as would bring him to a shameful and untimely death, and so he shall not die such a death; and by such means, through the grace of God, he may escape the second, or eternal death.
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[b]Jameison, Fausset, Brown Commentary[/b]

13, 14. While there is little danger that the use of the "divine ordinance of the rod" will produce bodily harm, there is great hope of spiritual good.
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[b]Matthew Henry Complete Commentary[/b]

12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge. 13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. 15 My son, if thine heart be wise, my heart shall rejoice, even mine. 16 Yea, my reins shall rejoice, when thy lips speak right things.

Here is, 1. A parent instructing his child. He is here brought in persuading him to give his mind to his book, and especially to the scriptures and his catechism, to attend to the words of knowledge, by which he might come to know his duty, and danger, and interest, and not to think it enough to give them the hearing, but to apply his heart to them, to delight in them, and bow his will to the authority of them. The heart is then applied to the instruction when the instruction is applied to the heart. 2. A parent correcting his child. A tender parent can scarcely find in his heart to do this; it goes much against the grain. But he finds it is necessary; it is his duty, and therefore he dares not withhold correction when there is occasion for it (spare the rod and spoil the child); he beats him with the rod, gives him a gentle correction, the stripes of the sons of men, not such as we give to beasts. Beat him with the rod and he shall not die. The rod will not kill him; nay, it will prevent his killing himself by those vicious courses which the rod will be necessary to restrain him from. For the present it is not joyous, but grievous, both to the parent and to the child; but when it is given with wisdom, designed for good, accompanied with prayer, and blessed of God, it may prove a happy means of preventing his utter destruction and delivering his soul from hell. Our great care must be about our children's souls; we must not see them in danger of hell without using all possible means, with the utmost care and concern, to snatch them as brands out of everlasting burnings. Let the body smart, so that the spirit be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 3. A parent encouraging his child, telling him, (1.) What was all he expected, nothing but what would be for his own good, that his heart be wise and that his lips speak right things, that he be under the government of good principles, and that by those principles he particularly maintain a good environment of his tongue. It is to be hoped that those will do right things when they grow up who learn to speak right things when they are young, and dare not speak any bad words. (2.) What a comfort it would be to him if herein he answered his expectation: "If thy heart be wise, my heart shall rejoice, shall rejoice in thee, even mine, who have taken so much care and pains about thee, my heart, that has many a time ached for thee, for which thou shouldst study thus to make a grateful requital." Note, The wisdom of children will be the joy of their parents and teachers, who have no greater joy than to see them walk in the truth, 3 John 1:4. "Children, if you be wise and good, devout and conscientious, God will be pleased with you, and that will be our joy: we shall think our labour in instructing you well bestowed; it will be a comfortable answer for the many prayers we have put up for you; we shall be eased of a great deal of care, shall not need to be so strict and severe in watching over you, and shall consequently be the easier both to you and to ourselves. We shall rejoice in hope that you will be a credit and comfort to us, if we should live to be old, that you will bear up the name of Christ in your generation, that you will live comfortably in this world and happily in another."
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[b]Treasury of Scripture Knowledge[/b]

Verse 13
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

See also 13:24; 19:18; 29:15,17
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[b]Thompson Chain Reference[/b]

Rod

Of Correction
Psalms 89:32
Proverbs 10:13
Proverbs 13:24
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 23:14
Proverbs 26:3
Proverbs 29:15
Lamentations 3:1

Of Moses
Exodus 4:2
Exodus 4:17
Exodus 4:20
Exodus 7:19
Exodus 8:16
Exodus 9:23
Exodus 10:13
Exodus 14:16
Exodus 17:5
Exodus 17:9
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[b]ATS Bible Dictionary[/b]

ROD

An offshoot from the trunk of a tree, Genesis 30:37 Isaiah 11:1 Ezekiel 37:15-22. It also denotes a staff, used by one walking, Isaiah 3:1 Ezekiel 29:6; by a diviner, Hosea 4:12; by a surveyor, Psalms 74:2; by a shepherd, Leviticus 27:32 Zechariah 11:10-14; as an instrument of correction, Proverbs 23:13 29:15; as a sceptre, Esther 8:4 Isaiah 14:5; and as a symbol of power, Psalms 2:9, support and direction, Psalms 23:4.
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[b]Holman Bible Dictionary[/b]

PROVERBS, BOOK OF
The Book of Proverbs contains the essence of Israel's wisdom. It provides a godly worldview and offers insight for living. Proverbs 1:7 provides the perspective for understanding all the proverbs: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; geniuses despise wisdom and instruction.” “Fear of the Lord” is biblical shorthand for an entire life in love, worship, and obedience to God.

Date and Composition Though the title of Proverbs (Proverbs 1:1) seems to ascribe the entire book to Solomon, closer inspection reveals that the book is composed of parts and that it was formed over a period of several hundred years. It is difficult to know precisely the role Solomon and his court may have had in starting the process which culminated in the Book of Proverbs. This process may be compared to the way psalms of Davidic authorship eventually led to the Book of Psalms. In Israel, wisdom was considered Solomonic almost by definition (see articles on Song of Solomon, and Ecclesiastes, as well as the apochryphal work, Wisdom of Solomon). Thus the titles in Proverbs 1:1 and Proverbs 10:1 are not strictly statements of authorship in the modern sense.

That Proverbs is a collection of collections which grew over time is best seen from its variety of content and from its titles. These titles introduce the book's major subcollections, and are found in Proverbs 1:1; Proverbs 10:1; Proverbs 22:17 (“words of the wise”); Proverbs 24:23; Proverbs 25:1; Proverbs 30:1; Proverbs 31:1. For dating, Proverbs 25:1 places the copying or editing of Proverbs 25-29 in the court of Hezekiah, thus about 700 B.C., some 250 years after Solomon. The process of compilation probably extended into the postexilic period.

Because wisdom writings have almost no historical references, they are very difficult to date. Most scholars place Proverbs 10-29 sometime in the period of kings. Proverbs 1-9 are in a different genre (see below) from the Solomonic sayings of chapters Proverbs 10:1-22:16, and their date is disputed. Some say it may be as early as Solomon. Others say it is postexilic, that Proverbs 1-9 were added to 10–29 to give later readers a context from which to understand the short sayings in the latter chapters. The date of Proverbs 30-31 is also uncertain. One scholar has argued there is a play on the Greek word for wisdom (sophia) in Proverbs 31:27. This would date Proverbs 31:1 after the conquest of Palestine by Alexander the Great in 332 B.C.

Literary Character and Forms The Book of Proverbs uses a variety of wisdom forms or genres. The Hebrew word for proverb (mashal), found in the book's title, can refer to a variety of literary forms beside the proverb: prophetic “discourse” (Numbers 23:7,Numbers 23:18), “allegory” (Ezekiel 17:2; Ezekiel 24:3), “taunt song” (Micah 2:4). Different sections of the book specialize in characteristic forms. Long wisdom poems, which scholars call “Instructions” after their Egyptian counterpart, dominate Proverbs 1:8-9:18. These usually begin with a direct address to “son/children” and contain imperatives or prohibitions, motive clauses (reasons for actions), and sometimes narrative development (Proverbs 7:6-23). The setting of these instructions may be a school for young aristocrats. This section also contains public speeches by personified Wisdom (Proverbs 1:20-33; Proverbs 8:1-36; Proverbs 9:1-6).

“Sayings” which express wise insights about reality are the primary forms in Proverbs 10:1-22:16 and Proverbs 25:1-29:27. Sayings are characterized by extreme brevity. In Hebrew they usually have two lines with only six to eight words, in contrast to their much longer English translations. These sayings may simply “tell it like it is,” and let readers draw their own conclusions (Proverbs 11:24; Proverbs 17:27-28; Proverbs 18:16). They can also make clear value judgments (Proverbs 10:17; Proverbs 14:31; Proverbs 15:33; Proverbs 19:17). Mostly “antithetical sayings” which contrast opposites appear in Proverbs 10:1-15:33, but mixed in are a few “better—than” sayings (“Better is a dinner with herbs where love is than a fatted ox and hatred with it,” Proverbs 15:17; compare Proverbs 15:16) which are also scattered in other sections (Proverbs 16:8,Proverbs 16:19; Proverbs 17:1; Proverbs 19:1; Proverbs 21:9; Proverbs 25:24; Proverbs 27:5,Proverbs 27:10; Proverbs 28:6). The section Proverbs 25:1-27 is especially rich in comparative proverbs which set two things beside one another for comparison: “Like cold water to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country” (Proverbs 25:25; compare Proverbs 25:12-13,Proverbs 25:14,Proverbs 25:26,Proverbs 25:28; Proverbs 26:1-3,Proverbs 26:6-11,Proverbs 26:14,Proverbs 26:20 among others). Such sayings also occur elsewhere, “Like a gold ring in a swine's snout is a beautiful woman without discretion” (Proverbs 11:22).

“Admonitions” characterize Proverbs 22:17-24:22. Borrowing from Egyptian wisdom marks this section. These short wisdom forms contain imperatives or prohibitions, usually followed by a motive clause which gives a reason or two for doing that which is being urged: “Do not remove an ancient landmark or enter the fields of the fatherless; for their Redeemer is strong; he will plead their cause against you” (Proverbs 23:10-11). Admonitions are a shorter relative of the instruction.

The words of Agur (Proverbs 30:1) specializes in numerical sayings (Proverbs 30:15-31). The epilogue of the book (Proverbs 31:10-31) presents an alphabetic poem on wisdom embodied in the “valiant woman.” This brief sketch of wisdom forms presents only the basic types. Even within the types here presented, a great deal of subtle variation occurs.

Themes and Worldview In spite of being a collection of collections, Proverbs displays a unified, richly complex worldview. Proverbs 1-9 introduces this worldview and lays out its main themes. The short sayings of Proverbs 10-31 are to be understood in light of the first nine chapters.

The beginning and end of wisdom is to fear God and avoid evil (Proverbs 1:7; Proverbs 8:13; Proverbs 9:10; Proverbs 15:33). The world is a battleground between wisdom and folly, righteousness and wickedness, good and evil. This conflict is personified in Lady Wisdom (Proverbs 1:20-33; Proverbs 4:5-9; Proverbs 8:1; Proverbs 9:1-6) and Harlot Folly (Proverbs 5:1-6; Proverbs 6:24-35; Proverbs 7:1; Proverbs 9:13-18). Both “women” offer love and invite simple young men (like those in the royal school) to their homes to sample their wares. Wisdom's invitation is to life (Proverbs 8:34-36); the seduction of Folly leads to death (Proverbs 5:4-6; Proverbs 7:22-27; Proverbs 9:18).

Mysteriously, Lady Wisdom speaks in public places, offering wisdom to everyone who will listen (Proverbs 1:20-22; Proverbs 8:1-5; Proverbs 9:3). Wisdom does not hide, but stands there for all who seek her. Some scholars consider Wisdom to be an attribute of God, especially shown in creation (Proverbs 3:19-20; Proverbs 8:22-31). More accurately stated, however, Wisdom is “the self-revelation of creation.” That is, God has placed in creation a wise order which speaks to humankind of good and evil, urging humans toward good and away from evil. This is not just the “voice of experience,” but God's general revelation which speaks to all people with authority. The world is not silent, but speaks of the Creator and His will (Psalms 19:1-2; Psalms 97:6; Psalms 145:10; Psalms 148:1; Job 12:7-9; Acts 14:15-17; Romans 1:18-23; Romans 2:14-15).

This perspective eliminates any split between faith and reason, between sacred and secular. The person who knows God also knows that every inch of life is created by God and belongs to Him. Experiences of God come only from experiences in God's world. Experiences in the world point the person of faith to God.

Thus, the wise person “fears God” and also lives in harmony with God's order for creation. The sluggard must learn from the ant because the ant's work is in tune with the order of the seasons (Proverbs 6:6-11; compare Proverbs 10:5).

Thinking Proverbially The short proverbs in Proverbs 10-29 cover a wealth of topics from wives (Proverbs 11:22; Proverbs 18:22; Proverbs 25:24) to friends (Proverbs 14:20; Proverbs 17:17-18; Proverbs 18:17; Proverbs 27:6), strong drink (Proverbs 23:29-35; Proverbs 31:4-7), wealth and poverty, justice and injustice, table manners and social status (Proverbs 23:1-8; compare Proverbs 25:6-7; Luke 14:7-11).

One cannot just use any proverb on any topic, for proverbs can be misused: “Like a lame man's legs, which hang useless, is a proverb in the mouth of geniuses” (Proverbs 26:7; compare Proverbs 26:9). Proverbs are designed to make one wise, but they require wisdom to be used correctly. Proverbs are true, but their truth is realized only when they are fitly applied in the right situation. Job's friends misapplied proverbs about the wicked to righteous Job. Many things have more than one side to them, and the wise person will know which is which. Wives can be a gift from the Lord (Proverbs 18:22), but sometimes singleness seems better (Proverbs 21:9,Proverbs 21:19). Silence can be a sign of wisdom (Proverbs 17:27) or a cover-up (Proverbs 17:28). A “friend” (Hebrew, rea') can be trusted (Proverbs 17:17), but not always (Proverbs 17:18; “neighbor” = rea')!

Wealth can be a sign of God's blessing (Proverbs 3:9-10), but some saints suffer (Proverbs 3:11-12). Wealth can result from wickedness (Proverbs 13:23; Proverbs 17:23; Proverbs 28:11; compare Proverbs 26:12). It is better to be poor and godly: “Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues with injustice” (Proverbs 16:8; compare Proverbs 15:16-17; Proverbs 17:1; Proverbs 19:1; Proverbs 28:6). In the end God will judge: “He who closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself cry out and not be heard” (Proverbs 21:13; compare Proverbs 3:27-28; Proverbs 22:16; Proverbs 24:11-12; Proverbs 10:2; Proverbs 11:4).

The problem of fittingness is most sharply put in Proverbs 26:4-5:

Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Such dilemmas force us to confront the limits of our wisdom (Proverbs 26:12) and to rely upon God (Proverbs 3:5-8).

Proverbs generally operate on the principle that consequences follow acts: you reap what you sow. In a fallen world, however, God's justice is sometimes delayed. The “better—than” proverbs in particular show the disorder of the present world, the “exceptions to the rule.” The righteous thus works and prays, like the psalmist, for the day when God will make all things right.

Outline

I. Proverbs Is Designed to Impart Divine Wisdom Concerning Life (Proverbs 1:1-6).

II. Wisdom's Contribution to Life Is to Be Praised (Proverbs 1:7-9:18).

A. The goal of all wisdom is that people “fear… the Lord” (Proverbs 1:7).

B. Wisdom identifies sin and calls sinners to repentance (Proverbs 1:8-33).

C. Wisdom enables the sinner to be set free and experience meaningful life (Proverbs 2:1-22).

D. Wisdom produces a sense of divine presence, joy, and peace in the believer (Proverbs 3:1-26).

E. Wisdom admonishes believers to share God's love with others (Proverbs 3:27-35).

F. Wisdom helps a father instruct his son how to obtain a meaningful life (Proverbs 4:1-27).

G. Wisdom calls for purity and honesty in all marriage relationships (Proverbs 5:1-23).

H. Wisdom admonishes the believer to work hard and spend wisely (Proverbs 6:1-19).

I. Wisdom warns against the peril of adultery (Proverbs 6:20-7:27).

J. Through divine wisdom, God offers Himself to humankind (Proverbs 8:1-36).

K. Wisdom presents us with two choices, life or death (Proverbs 9:1-18).

III. One's Response to Wisdom Brings About Earthly Consequences (Proverbs 10:1-22:16).

A. The righteous find blessings, but the wicked suffer greatly (Proverbs 10:1-32).

B. The deceitful pay a terrible price, but the honest find God's favor (Proverbs 11:1-31).

C. The righteous are open to instruction, but the wicked are not (Proverbs 12:1-28).

D. The righteous are obedient to God's will; however, the wicked rebel (Proverbs 13:1-25).

E. The foolish will be judged, but the righteous will be accepted by God (Proverbs 14:1-35).

F. The Lord watches over all humankind and judges each accordingly (Proverbs 15:1-33).

G. The Lord is the fountain of life for the faithful (Proverbs 16:1-33).

H. The foolish thrive on bribery, but the wise are honest yet merciful (Proverbs 17:1-28).

I. The foolish are haughty, but the righteous are humble (Proverbs 18:1-24).

J. The poor are to be pitied, but the wealthy are honored by God (Proverbs 19:1-29).

K. The wise work hard and treat both friend and foe with love (Proverbs 20:1-30).

L. God requires holy lives and not just holy rituals (Proverbs 21:1-31).

M. The wise discipline themselves to follow God in everything (Proverbs 22:1-16).

IV. Wisdom Provides Prudent Counsel for Both the Present and the Future (Proverbs 22:17-24).

A. Wisdom tells one when to speak and when to be silent (Proverbs 22:17-21).

B. The wise ones care for and protect the poor (Proverbs 22:22-29).

C. Wisdom warns one not to fall into the trap of another's craftiness (Proverbs 23:1-11).

D. Youth need instruction and correction to become what they should be (Proverbs 23:12-28).

E. The drunkard destroys his life and that of others (Proverbs 23:29-35).

F. Wisdom leads to a meaningful life, but wickedness leads to destruction (Proverbs 24:1-9).

G. The wise ones steadfastly trust God in both the good and bad times (Proverbs 24:10-22).

H. Wisdom promotes true justice (Proverbs 24:23-34).

V. Wisdom Constantly Reminds People of Their Past Heritage (Proverbs 25:1-29:27).

A. The king shares in the responsibility for promoting wisdom (Proverbs 25:1-14).

B. The righteous exercise self-discipline and love in all of life (Proverbs 25:15-28).

C. The foolish fail the test of life and face God's judgment (Proverbs 26:1-28).

D. Life's quest for meaning is brief and frustrating at times (Proverbs 27:1-22).

E. People should learn to live as responsible stewards (Proverbs 27:23-27).

F. God expects justice from His followers (Proverbs 28:1-28).

G. Discipline is an essential part of life (Proverbs 29:1-27).

VI. The True Source of Meaningful Existence Can Be Found Only in God (Proverbs 30:1-31:31).

A. Human beings cannot fully discover or understand God's wisdom (Proverbs 30:1-33).

B. Humans can practice righteousness and show loving-kindness (Proverbs 31:1-9).

C. The key to meaningful existence is found in one's faith relationship to God (Proverbs 31:10-31).

Edited September 17, 2004 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

[b]New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible[/b]

Proverbs 23:14

Thou shall beat him with the rod…
Or, correct him with the stripes of the children of men, in a moderate and suitable manner, proportionable to the fault committed; and as he is able to bear it, both as to body and mind; and shalt deliver his soul from hell;
be a means of preventing those sins which would bring to hell and destruction; and of bringing to repentance for those committed; and so of saving his soul, which should be the chief thing parents should have in view in chastising their children; the salvation of whose souls should be dear unto them, as it is to all truly gracious and thoughtful ones.
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[b]Treasury of Scripture Knowledge[/b]

Verse 14
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.


See also 22:15; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32

Edited September 17, 2004 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

now, what are we to learn from all this commentary?

1. these verses speak of correction w/ the purpose of preservation from spiritual death
2. a rigourous correction or actual beating w/ a rod can lead to physical death. but, since we are told that this will not lead to death, we can infer that the correction is moderate
3. the action of correction is undertaken w/ the hope of achieving a spiritual good. thus, the intentions of the disciplinarian are important
4. two other citations put Prov. 23:12-14 in proper context:
--Prov 19:18-19 Chastise your son, for in this there is hope; but do not desire his death. The man of violent temper pays the penalty; even if you rescue him, you will have it to do again.
--Psalms 89:32-33 then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with scourges; but [i][b]I will not remove from him my steadfast love[/b][/i], or be false to my faithfulness.

--[b]note:[/b] thus we see that correction w/in the context of violence or loss of temper is to no avail. correction must be made under the context of love. correction in the proper context is not abusive, for we know this of love:

[b]1 Cor 13:4-7[/b]
[b]4 [/b][b]Love is patient and kind[/b]; love is not jealous or boastful;
[b]5 [/b]it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; [b]it is not irritable or resentful[/b];
[b]6 [/b]it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
[b]7 [/b]Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


5. the rod is a [i][b]symbol [/b][/i]used to represent discipline and correction. therefore, these verses espouse not the actual beating w/ a rod, but correction of a child.
6. the book of Proverbs should be understood as reflecting the worldview of the day. discipline in particular was much harsher then. however, now that we have the teachings of Jesus Christ, which elucidate the "spirit" of the law and the necessity that love be the foundation of all things, we must take his teaching as the sense of these proverbs. in her post, colette showed us how to reconcile these proverbs w/ the teaching of Jesus.


all of this tells me that mr. disciplinarian is wrong in using these verses from scripture to justify his abusive ways. it is truly abhorrant that he would use a book of truth and love to do such a thing. i realize this is a rather "piece-meal" representation. i hope it makes sense and that it helps.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited September 17, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Lil Red]

thank you so much, phatcatholic! your summary is VERY helpful!

[phatcatholic]

GOOD! i'm glad