Stop It!

[Lil Red]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0102fea1.asp"]From www.catholic.com, back issue of This Rock magazine.[/url]

I'm posting what I think are the revelant parts of this article.

[quote]Before I share my reflections on "apologetics," let me clarify one thing: I am a Catholic. I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches. But that doesn’t mean I accept every garden-variety argument used to support those teachings, and I hope you can keep that distinction in mind as I criticize some common apologetic arguments.

One more thing—I know the Protestants make their mistakes too. When I was a Protestant, I picked on them. But let’s get the log out of our eye before we take the splinter out of our brother’s.[/quote]

[quote][u]The Church is Infallible and Therefore So Am I[/u]
The Catholic apologist has to guard against believing that his methods are right because his conclusions are right. A more healthy approach would say, "This is the Catholic faith as I understand it, and this is why I find that position reasonable. But please go to the church’s official documents and check it out for yourself."

[b]Bad habit: Assuming that you are right because the Church is right.
Remedy: Listen to your critics—yes, even non-Catholics. You may not know as much as you think you know.[/b]

[u]Proper Conclusions Don’t Fix Bad Arguments[/u]
[b]Bad habit: Assuming that an argument is valid because it has convinced other people.
Remedy: Listen to your critics, not just your cheerleaders. The former may have some insights on the logic (or illogic) of your arguments.[/b]

[u]Get over Jack Chick Already[/u]
[b]Bad habit: Engaging in ad hominem attacks of any sort.
Remedy: Get over it. Fussing and whining about how mean the other guy is only makes you a crybaby.[/b]

[u]Twenty-Three Thousand Denominations[/u]
[b]Bad habit: Learning about generic "Protestant" doctrine and applying it to all Protestants.
Remedy: Let your Protestant friend speak for himself. Listen to what he’s saying without imposing any doctrinal template on his words.[/b]

[u]Quit Picking on Luther[/u]
[b]Bad habit: Attacking Martin Luther based on a cursory study of his teachings or based on Catholic apologetic sources.
Remedy: Either spend a year studying Luther so you really know what he said—and don’t bother if you’re reading him only to find the juicy stuff—or purge the name from your vocabulary.[/b]

[u]No One Ever Heard of (Blank) until the Reformation[/u]
The claim goes like this: "No one ever heard of sola scriptura [or sola fide, or doubted the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books, or whatever] until Martin Luther."

[b]Bad habit #1: Asserting a universal negative.
Bad habit #2: Repeating extravagant claims you read in apologetic literature that the author himself could not possibly have known.
Remedy: Stick to what you really know.[/b]

[u]The Gospel According to Scott[/u]
Again and again I’ve run across well-meaning Catholic apologists who seem to know the writings of Scott Hahn better than they know their Bibles. Believe me, it shows. Every Protestant familiar with recent Catholic apologetics is going to spot it and recognize such an apologist for what he is. The Protestant will know that the Catholic is just proof-texting—that he hasn’t internalized the biblical text. It’s just something he cites to prove his point, and when he does read the Bible, it’s only to find ammunition for the next battle. The Protestant will assume that the Catholic apologist lacks a personal relationship with Christ, and he’ll have all the more reason to mistrust Catholic arguments.

[b]Bad habit: Using the Bible like a tool to win arguments with other Christians.
Remedy: Quit apologetics. Major in Bible study, and work on your personal relationship with Christ.[/b]

[u]What Good Is an Infallible Bible . . . ?[/u]
What good is the Bible? That kind of language makes Protestants roll their eyes. ("Those Catholics really don’t get it, do they?") Any serious Evangelical knows scores of people whose lives have been miraculously transformed by reading the Bible. Besides that, the Evangelical himself has personally experienced God speaking to him in the words of Scripture.

[b]Bad habit: Trying to magnify the Church and Catholic doctrine by disparaging the Bible.
Remedy: Always speak of the Bible reverently. Read Psalms 19 and 119, and learn to regard the Bible the way King David did. Never even consider saying, "What good is the Bible . . . ?" You’d be better off to cut out your tongue and chop off your fingers.[/b]

[u]The Break in the Infallible Chain Is There for Both Sides[/u]
[b]Bad habit: Tossing around infallibility as if it solves everything.
Remedy: Focus on the need for an authoritative Church. Once that is established, then work on infallibility.[/b]

[u]Speak the Truth in Love[/u]

The One who said "I am the Truth" is not served by anything but our strictest honesty and careful attention to truth. Let’s commit ourselves to speaking the truth in love, even if that means "losing" an argument, or responding to a non-Catholic with an embarrassing "I don’t know" or "I didn’t realize that."

Or even "You’re right."[/quote]

[Paladin D]

Thank you for posting this article! That is why I have strayed away from any major debates, because I'm developing my relationship with Christ at the time being. I agree with most of the article (if not all, haven't read it all yet). I unfortunately have seen some of this on Phatmass, and I pray that it will drastically come to a halt.

[kateri05]

for all the times i've been guilty of these things, i apologize. thanks lilred, great article

although to be fair to some of us Scott Hahn fans ... hes just a mean interpreter you know? most of the scripture that he uses as evidence for Catholic theological arugements, i've heard before but never realized how they applied to only to my Church but to my own spiritual life. He's an awesome teacher, not just for apologetic purposes, but for people who want to grow and understand their own faith!

that being said, back to plank removal duty

Edited September 17, 2004 by kateri05

[RemnantRules]

Blessed Be God!!!

Hmmm where do i start...

[quote]Bad habit: Assuming that you are right because the Church is right.
Remedy: Listen to your critics—yes, even non-Catholics. You may not know as much as you think you know.[/quote]

I would agree with this except if i'm reading from the Bible or the Catechism.


[quote]Get over Jack Chick Already
Bad habit: Engaging in ad hominem attacks of any sort.
Remedy: Get over it. Fussing and whining about how mean the other guy is only makes you a crybaby.[/quote]

so i'm just suppose to lay on my back and let it slide


[quote]Twenty-Three Thousand Denominations
Bad habit: Learning about generic "Protestant" doctrine and applying it to all Protestants.
Remedy: Let your Protestant friend speak for himself. Listen to what he’s saying without imposing any doctrinal template on his words.[/quote]

Now i will agreee with this one.


[quote]Quit Picking on Luther
Bad habit: Attacking Martin Luther based on a cursory study of his teachings or based on Catholic apologetic sources.
Remedy: Either spend a year studying Luther so you really know what he said—and don’t bother if you’re reading him only to find the juicy stuff—or purge the name from your vocabulary.[/quote]

Now this one i'm sorry but i have to disagree with. When a man says he's totally loyal to the Pople and then goes behind his back to apease the Lords and Nobles to sepreate from the church and call the Pope a crazy man i tend to not like that so much.


[quote]The Gospel According to Scott
Again and again I’ve run across well-meaning Catholic apologists who seem to know the writings of Scott Hahn better than they know their Bibles. Believe me, it shows. Every Protestant familiar with recent Catholic apologetics is going to spot it and recognize such an apologist for what he is. The Protestant will know that the Catholic is just proof-texting—that he hasn’t internalized the biblical text. It’s just something he cites to prove his point, and when he does read the Bible, it’s only to find ammunition for the next battle. The Protestant will assume that the Catholic apologist lacks a personal relationship with Christ, and he’ll have all the more reason to mistrust Catholic arguments.[/quote]

Alright, i'll sort of agree with that but we all read the bible and we all get something out of it and we all get something different each time we read it so I don't know what to say about that.



[quote]What Good Is an Infallible Bible . . . ?
What good is the Bible? That kind of language makes Protestants roll their eyes. ("Those Catholics really don’t get it, do they?") Any serious Evangelical knows scores of people whose lives have been miraculously transformed by reading the Bible. Besides that, the Evangelical himself has personally experienced God speaking to him in the words of Scripture.[/quote]

Just to add on that one is to show that in the Catholic Church that the Bible is an essintial part of the faith, it's a leg which we stand on and without it we would fall.



[quote]The Break in the Infallible Chain Is There for Both Sides
Bad habit: Tossing around infallibility as if it solves everything.
Remedy: Focus on the need for an authoritative Church. Once that is established, then work on infallibility.[/quote]

And learn what the church teaches as infallible.


God Bless
Jason Gregory
RemnantRoadie

[Lil Red]

remnant, did you read the whole article? or just the parts that i posted? he goes into greater detail in the whole article. please read the WHOLE article.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Sep 17 2004, 02:27 PM'] remnant, did you read the whole article? or just the parts that i posted? he goes into greater detail in the whole article. please read the WHOLE article. [/quote]
Yeah, have to follow the link and read the article (it has more detail).

[mulls]

that is the greatest post i have ever seen on this phorum!!!!!!!!




AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paladin D]

[quote name='mulls' date='Sep 17 2004, 02:48 PM'] that is the greatest post i have ever seen on this phorum!!!!!!!!




AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]
I agree, it's [b]one of the greatest[/b].

[Lil Red]

[quote name='mulls' date='Sep 17 2004, 12:48 PM'] that is the greatest post i have ever seen on this phorum!!!!!!!!




AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]
thanks. i ran across it this morning, and i just knew it needed to be posted here.

[Lil Red]

i have seen great examples of people who debate very well here at phatmass, including, but not limited to, JeffRC, mmmerf, and Apotheoun. from what i have seen, these three have been very good at explaining, but not patronising, and very good at being respectful.

[VeraMaria]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Sep 17 2004, 03:57 PM'] i have seen great examples of people who debate very well here at phatmass, including, but not limited to, JeffRC, mmmerf, and Apotheoun. from what i have seen, these three have been very good at explaining, but not patronising, and very good at being respectful. [/quote]
AMEN!!!!!!








That was a very good article, makes you think...although I haven't been into active apologetics long enough to have fallen into those...but it's very good to know.

[Cure of Ars]

Although the article brings up some good points I think it is overly critical. We should do our best to be fair and to give the best arguments possible for our beliefs but I disagree that you should wait until you’re an expert apologist before you do apologetics. Like G. K. Chesterton said “anything worth doing is worth doing badly”.

Just as long as apologetics is done with prayer and with charity, God will be able to use it even if the argument is not very good. And if it is the best argument in the world done without love and prayer it will do no good. “For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.” (1 Cor 1:25)

Edited September 18, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[Oik]

I agree with Cure. I think the article was a bit. However, after thinking about it, we can all benefit from the insights not only in the article, but from others. It made me think over several things I hadn't before.

Good post Lil Red.

[Pope St Clement 1]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but there is one question I had to ask.


[quote]Bad habit: Tossing around infallibility as if it solves everything. [/quote]

What about the canon of the Scripture and specifically, in Catholic vs non-Catholic discussions, the canon of the New Testament? Is it advisable to to argue for the need of an infallible magisterium (as I've done) in order to know which books belong in the The New Testament?

I used this argument in a debate with two Jehovah's witnesses but that was after I'd made the following statement :

"An argument often given for sola scriptura is that anything not written down would have been lost or corrupted. Firstly, this implies that our omnipotent God is incapable of preserving anything unless his human servants have committed it to scripture - a clearly illogical implication."

They then used this previous argument of mine to say that God isn't limited to a need for an infallible church in order for him to make known to us what belongs in scripture.

God bless
Robert

P.S. How do I get more than one line of text into a quote?

[Pope St Clement 1]

Sorry, I meant to post this in the Catholic Apologetics section.

Can it be moved?