Grr...

[Ziggamafu]

[url="http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/cath4.html"]http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/cath4.html[/url]

[StColette]

Just to answer a few of these

[quote]Prayers for the dead were introduced in 310 [/quote]

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God. This proves the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers are united.

Rev. 6:9-11 - God answers the prayers of the saints. In this case, he avenges their blood. We therefore ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 - in heaven the prayers of the saints rise up as incense before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his childrens' requests.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

[quote]The lighting of candles in 320 [/quote]

Well, considering it was 320 and there wasn't electricity yeah I could see how candles would need to be lighted

[quote]The worship of saints about 375 [/quote]

Saints aren't worshipped.

Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God's children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.

1 Cor. 4:16-17 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do.

1 Cor. 11:1-2 - again, Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.

[quote]The worship of Mary began to develop about 432[/quote]

Mary isn't worshipped but venerated there's a difference For evidence of veneration see the above verses concerning veneration of Saints.

[quote]Worship in Latin (since repealed) was mandated in 600 [/quote]

And worship in Latin is wrong because ? God knows all languages so to say that Latin is an unknown language to God is kind of ignorant.

[quote]The worship of images and relics was authorized in 788 [/quote]

The veneration of Christian images did not just begin in 788 AD, in fact some Christian art can be dated back to the first century. The catacombs are filled with many different types of Christian art. The catacombs is covered in pictures of Christ, of the saints, scenes from the Bible etc. Since this was early in the formation of the Church and of Christianity, if the Christians had any fear of idolatry by making these images they would not have done so. Through research it is easy to see that these pictures served as a type of reminder of the history of Christianity and the meaning behind it. Pictures of Christ kept the Christians mindful of the words the He preached and the things that He taught. Images of the Saints, taught them to strive for holiness as those before them did. Scenes from the Bible taught the Word of God. Many Protestants would also be shocked to find many paintings of Mary within the catacombs. She was never forgotten during the formation of the Church because she played such an important role in the beginning of it all. During the time of Constantine, basilicas began to be built and they were filled with wonderful images and statues that once would have been predominately seen only in the catacombs.

[quote]The invention of holy water was about 850 [/quote]

Holy Water in the Old Testament
Ex. 29:4
Lev. 8:6
Ex. 30:18-21
Num. 5:17
Num. 8:7
Num 8:21
Psalm 50:9
Ex 12:22
Lev 14:4,5
Nm 19:18
1 Kings 7:38-39
Holy Water in the New Testament
Mark 1:8-10
John 13:4-10
John 19:34

[quote]Prayer beads were introduced in 1090 [/quote]

If you look at History prayer beads were introduced long before this.

[quote]Confession was instituted in 1215 [/quote]

James 5:16

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

This tells us that we are to confess our sins to one another. In the case of within the Catholic Church, our Priest continue to practice the authority that was given to the Apostles from Christ.

For the Church Authority evidence to establish Confession as a sacrament please see Matthew 18:18

Mt 18:18

18 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Christ gives the apostles authority to bind and loose teachings. The Catholic Church is founded on the Apostolic Truth thus the Sacrament of Confession is bound on Earth and in Heave through the authority of the apostles which came from Christ.


[quote]The Ave Maria was introduced in 1316 [/quote]

Actually the first part of the Ave Maria can be found in Scripture in Luke's Gospel, next Mary is the Mother of God, and by this meaning God made flesh who is Jesus Christ. "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" the Saints can pray for us as evident in the Book of Revelation where the prayers of Saints were placed before the throne of God.

[quote]Purgatory was officially decreed in 1439 [/quote]

Evidence of Purgatory

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

[quote]The Apocrypha was received into the Canon in 1546 [/quote]

The Council of Trent merely reaffirmed the Canon of Scripture after Martin Luther removed some of the books.

Council of Rome [A.D. 382])"Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus, one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books" (Decree of Pope Damasus).

A council held at Rome in 382 under St. Damasus gave a complete list of the canonical books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament (also known as the 'Gelasian Decree' because it was reproduced by Gelasius in 495), which is identical with the list given at Trent.

(Council of Hippo [A.D. 393])"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon, the twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (canon 36).

(Council of Carthage III [A.D. 397])"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the Canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach], twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ." (canon 47).

Pope Innocent I concurred with and sanctioned the canonical ruling of the above Councils (Letter to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse) in 405

And speaking of the "Apocrypha" they were included in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament from the third century B.C.), which was the "Bible" of the Apostles. They usually quoted the Old Testament scriptures (in the text of the New Testament) from the Septuagint.

[quote]The immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary was announced in 1854 [/quote]

Luke 1:28 Caire Kecharitomene

"kecharitomene".. is a perfect passive participle. It means one endowed with favour or grace in a "permanent or perfect" fashion. According to Greek grammatical lexicons, the perfect stem of a Greek verb means the 'perpetuation of a permanent result or completed action'.

[quote]The personal corporeal presence of the Virgin in heaven in 1950 [/quote]

There is proof within the Bible of Mary's Assumption. Since Mary is the Ark of New Covenant which can also be proven with Scripture. We read in Rev 11:19 and 12:1 that the Temple of God openned up and there was the Ark of the Covenant and we continuing reading to see that a great signed appeared in the sky A Woman, who is Mary. Also remember that the Chapter seperations were not introduced until the Middle Ages meaning that verses 11:19 and 12:1 ran completely together.

"If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have
been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her
crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to
what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine
gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared
blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."

Epiphanius,Panarion,78:23(A.D. 377),in PG 42:737

"[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and
they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord
stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded
that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul,
[Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..."

Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles,1:4(inter A.D. 575-593),inJUR,III:306

"As the most glorious Mother of Christ,our Savior and God and the giver of
life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an
eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up
from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him."
Modestus of Jerusalem,Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae

nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae(PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D.634) from Munificentis simus Deus

"It was fitting ... that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body,
receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and
full glory ... should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and
raised up toheaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God."

Theoteknos of Livias,Homily on the Assumption(ante A.D. 650),in THEO,57

"You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body
is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dewlling place of God, so that it is
henceforth completely exempt from dissoultion into dust. Though still human,
it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and
glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life."

Germanus of Constantinople,Sermon I(PG 98,346),(ante A.D. 733),from Munificentis simus Deus

"It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth,
should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was
fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should
dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the
Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was
fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby
received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when
giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was
fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that
she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid
of God"

John of Damascene,Dormition of Mary(PG 96,741),(ante A.D. 749) from Munificentis simus Deus

" 'St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451),
made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess
the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the
Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas,
was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was
taken up to heaven.' "

John of Damascene,PG(96:1)(A.D. 747-751)

"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy
Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by
the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from
herself."

Gregorian Sacramentary,Veneranda(ante A.D. 795), from Munificentis simus Deus

"[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's
Assumption is something unique among men."
Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus
"God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature.
As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the
tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb."

Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus

"[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the
place of reception"

Timotheus of Jerusalem(6th-8th century),in OTT,208

[Ziggamafu]

you should email him this! it irks me to see so much ignorance...

[StColette]

lol I've seen this list before, it irked me too when I saw it, many of my Phatmass tracts came from that list of things for example the graven image one and the holy water one both became tracts hehe I may email him a more elaborate tract about it hehe

[VeraMaria]

Whoa, Jennie rocks

Queen of the Apologetics Board for good reason

[StColette]

lol Vera thanks girlie

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Does this guy really think that he knows his history?

I mean...

[quote]Priests began to assume distinctive robes in 500[/quote]

Well...no...priest always wore common clothing until the common clothing changed, at which time, priests continued wearing robes.

[StColette]

Everytime I read the candle one it makes me crack up.