Facing Of The Priest During Mass.

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Oct 1 2004, 09:45 AM'] We used to have women deaconesses. Just because we do or haven't done something before or after the councils of Trent and Vatican II doesn't make it right or wrong. [/quote]
That is not true. Women were never ordained... since a deacon has Holy Orders, only a man can be a deacon.

[qfnol31]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm"]New Advent[/url]

That was just an example. My point was simply that Church Tradition is not defined (in dates) by councils, that is, we don't say that Tradition stopped with Trent or began with Vatican II, etc.

[qfnol31]

[quote]It was important that in offering the
sacrifice of the Mass to God (not to the people) that he face East.
This is still the almost universal practice in all the Eastern Rites.

But for centuries in the West, that practice and understanding has
been lost - not only by the Laity - but most of the Clergy. Most of
those in the West simply do not understand the original reason for
the priest and the people facing the same way during Mass. The REAL
REASON was so both the Clergy and Laity could face East.[/quote]

That was the reason I originally posted this. Just what we've lost through the years. Then again, sometimes the best way to see what you've lost is to take it away and reorder it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Oct 1 2004, 07:45 AM'] We used to have women deaconesses.  Just because we do or haven't done something before or after the councils of Trent and Vatican II doesn't make it right or wrong. [/quote]
The deaconesses of the past were not ordained; instead, they were, like nuns of today, consecrated, but they never received a sacred power to serve at the altar during the Divine Liturgy. Women have never received sacred orders, nor is it possible for them to receive sacred orders.

God bless,
Todd

[Theoketos]

From my understanding the deaconess were indeed not ordained, and their main function was to assit with the part of the Baptism of disrobed women....

[Apotheoun]

[quote]Most of the early "Western" exceptions to both the Celebrant and the
people facing East during Mass (the most famous exceptions were in
Rome) are cases where the geography of donated land/building for a
Church/Basilica did not readily allow for a Western entrance.[/quote]
As Fr. Bouyer has shown in his studies on the liturgy, in Churches built where the priest had to stand behind the altar and face the people in order to pray facing east; the people, during the Eucharistic anaphora (canon), would turn their backs to the priest and face east as well. There has never been a time in the history of the Church, where the priest and people faced each other during the recitation of the Eucharistic prayer itself; instead, they would only face each other during the dialogue portions of the Mass.

God bless,
Todd

[Colleen]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 1 2004, 01:45 PM'] From my understanding the deaconess were indeed not ordained, and their main function was to assit with the part of the Baptism of disrobed women.... [/quote]
That was my understanding as well.

[qfnol31]

Yep. The point was just that we don't use them anymore (and the reasons why not is funny.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Oct 1 2004, 02:45 PM'] As Fr. Bouyer has shown in his studies on the liturgy, in Churches built where the priest had to stand behind the altar and face the people in order to pray facing east; the people, during the Eucharistic anaphora (canon), would turn their backs to the priest and face east as well. There has never been a time in the history of the Church, where the priest and people faced each other during the recitation of the Eucharistic prayer itself; instead, they would only face each other during the dialogue portions of the Mass.

God bless,
Todd [/quote]
That is exactly right. The practice of Mass being said "facing the people" is quite novel. Msgr. Klaus Gamber, who was not a tradionalist, proves this point quite well in his book "The Reform of the Roman Liturgy".

[qfnol31]

[quote]157. When the prayer is concluded, the priest genuflects, takes the host consecrated in the same Mass, and, holding it slightly raised above the paten or above the chalice, [color=red]while facing the people[/color], says, Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God). With the people he adds, Domine, non sum dignus (Lord, I am not worthy).

158. After this, standing and [color=red]turned toward the altar[/color], the priest says quietly, Corpus Christi custodiat me in vitam aeternam (May the Body of Christ bring me to everlasting life) and reverently receives the Body of Christ. Then he takes the chalice, saying quietly, Sanguis Christi custodiat me in vitam aeternam (May the Blood of Christ bring me to everlasting life), and reverently receives the Blood of Christ.[/quote]

I think this might imply that the Priest is normally facing away from the people, for it says the words "turned toward the altar" and "facing the people" as if they are normally seperate things.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Oct 8 2004, 01:23 AM']
I think this might imply that the Priest is normally facing away from the people, for it says the words "turned toward the altar" and "facing the people" as if they are normally seperate things. [/quote]
According to many accounts of the Council Fathers and even from some of the members of Bugnini's [i]Consilium[/i], the intention was not to have the entire Mass said facing the people. Rather, they thought it pastorally beneficial to have the readings read facing the people but that the rest, especially the Canon (which was not intended to be in the vernacular), would be said facing the altar.