Music Of The Church

[qfnol31]

The Collegium Cantorem of UD sang at Mass this morning. We sing polyphony, but it goes really well with the chants of the monks.

[BigM]

In my search of Sacred Music and its history, I have found a shifting in the use of Gregorian Chant. From my point of view, the Vatican itself shifts its point of view, favoring its use in areas where the Church has grown well, supported well and "somewhat" educated in tradition to urging the use of local traditional/seculare music styles in areas where the Church is reaching out, such as missions in third World countries and youth/young adult ministries of the modern day urbanized society.

Here in my Diocese most Catholics truly do not know the difference between Sacred Music, traditional hymns and contemporary music. Most think of the contemporary songs of the 60's and 70's are traditional hymns, when they are merely the first contemporary songs arriving after Vatican II and even better example are the Parishioners who think that the traditional hymns they remember and love are the Sacred Music the priest are talking about. Most think of Gregorian Chant as real cool meditative Christmas Carols...

My question, being a slightly educated Catholic of a slightly practicing Catholic family in a Diocese that is slightly active in the true Worship of their God, is: Where does tradition stop and change take place?

"Tradition" being the contemporary songs and traditional hymns many Catholics are use to hearing within the Liturgy and "change" being the acceptance of new local seculare styles of music within the Liturgy.

We, the Catholic Church have changed in the past. Vatican II even supports change. The Church wanting to insure that we do not fall into a grid lock and lose site of who we are and what we are going, as in the past.

[DominaNostra]

Your post is slightly confused and falls into the unHoly "Spirit of Vatican II." Vatican II itself states that Gregorian Chant is the music of the Church, to be given pride of place. The practices (read: abuses) of most churches is not some sort of excuse for the practice. Persistent disobedience does not make something into obedience.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I've got the Chant: 25th Anniversary Edition (compilation of the original "Chant" and "Chant II" CDs) CD with 36 chants by the Benedictine Monks of Santo Damingo de Silos. It's money.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='DominaNostra' date='Sep 24 2004, 02:01 AM'] Your post is slightly confused and falls into the unHoly "Spirit of Vatican II." Vatican II itself states that Gregorian Chant is the music of the Church, to be given pride of place. The practices (read: abuses) of most churches is not some sort of excuse for the practice. Persistent disobedience does not make something into obedience. [/quote]
No document bans all music except gregorian chant.

[qfnol31]

However, all of them do say that Gregorian chant is the best music for the Mass, followed by polyphonic hymns. I know many churches that don't even consider them appropriate. That would in a sense be disobedience because they're contradicting the Magesterium in word. I think that's the point of DominaNostra.

[kateri05]

[quote name='thedude' date='Sep 15 2004, 07:08 PM'] My Church would never play it. I doubt they could even pronounce the words. [/quote]
ditto. they prefer protesant hyms with hand gestures.... which, i admit, is nice (well the songs, not so much the pseudo-dancing) but sometimes, you just want quiet, reflective music... and chant is just so beautiful

[BigM]

If Chant is the Music of Mass, why do we have(us Catholics) and why did they(our Vatican) allow other styles to be placed within the Liturgy?

[qfnol31]

They allow them and they can be okay (depending on how they are written) but the Gregorian chants and polyphony should most definately be first.

[cmotherofpirl]

Most local parishes have never had chant for Mass, they simply sang hymns.

[Crusader_4]

Gregorian chant is beautiful and really has a great place in the mass as well as encouraging meditation.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 24 2004, 09:56 PM'] Most local parishes have never had chant for Mass, they simply sang hymns. [/quote]
I personally find it sad...I sing chants quite often for Mass myself...They're pretty easy to learn too. (Not to mention more theologically correct than most of what we sing today and more appropriate.

[Thomas Michael]

That's the sad thing... most music directors or others in charge of Mass music are addicted to the Easy Listening hymns that have infiltrated the churches since VCII. Give me Gregorian chant over "Mass Of Creation" any day.

One church in Arlington did the Latin chanting only during Lent. It's a shame that some people regard Latin singing as only for special or somber occasions.

Edited September 28, 2004 by Thomas Michael

[Cam42]

[quote]Most local parishes have never had chant for Mass, they simply sang hymns.[/quote]

This is a wholly inaccurate statement. Slightly before Vatican II there was an innovation in the Liturgy of the Church called the [i]Dialogue Mass.[/i] Before this there was no such thing as hymn singing at Mass. All sung Masses were chanted for the propers and most of the ordinaries too. There were some churches that were proficient enough to have a polyphonic choir, but most simply chanted.

The idea of 4 hymns is a Protestant idea that has infiltrated the Church. There is no Sacred Tradition involved with hymns in the Liturgy. Sacred Tradition does however play a part in hymnody, although it is not based in the Liturgy, but based on concert musicianship.

If one looks to what is right and true in the Church, we will see that that Gregorian Chant has pride of place. This idea of pride of place has become a catch phrase, but there is some real truth to it. When something is destined to be right, through time and practice, it should hold pride of place. Organs have that with instrumentation, and Gregorian Chant has that with the human voice.

The simplification of a statement to say that hymns were what were used is disingenuious. It is a far cry from the accurate statement that hymnody didn't enter into the mainstream of Catholic Liturgy until the mid-1950's.

Sad thing....pray for the return of Gregorian Chant, it has a real theology to it that should not be lost.

Cam