How To Answer This One...

[P3chrmd]

trying to discuss the intercession of the saints...and "can they hear us" or how can they...why can't they...and this is one of his arguments (we were talking about the transfiguration...

[quote]We are talking about praying. Jesus did not pray to Moses or Elijas. But this does bring up an interesting topic about the Catholic Church claim that we can/should pray to saints and they will intercede for us.

Why didn't Jesus just pray to them if He wanted to talk to them??? Surely if we can pray to saints in Heaven and they hear us and act on what we say to them ( as the Catholic Church claiims ), then Jesus could have just prayed to Moses and Elijas. BUT, they came to Him and they took on a recognizable form ( and since they are dead, it would be a spiritual body, not a fleshly body ) . And since they didn't do anything else while they were back , yes, they came just to speak to Jesus. Matthew 17:2-3 He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Also notice that Moses and Elijah paid no attention at all to Peter, James, and John.

Gabriel took on some form, but since He never came to me I cannot say what form it was.[/quote]'

HELP PHAM!

[Mary's Knight, La]

Who can the Son of God pray to? whose requests should be more honored than the "son on who [God's] favor rests?" Their going to Him is the reason it is wholesome to get them to intercede for us. It is through His life that their prayers and our own are efficacious.

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

Ask them what it means to pray...it is communication...When we pray to God we talk to God...when we pray to Saint's we talk to them (specifically asking them to help us.)

sorry this was short...but i am off to grab some comida!

With Charity,

Andrew

[Christina]

I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but in dealing with a Protestant from my chat room who had "why do you pray to the saints and since they are dead they can't hear us, so why ask them to help you" questions... I prepared something for her, that I'm just going to paste here without editing. Hope it helps.


[i][b]Is it Biblical to ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us, you ask?[/b]

Catholics say YES, since we are all part of the communion of saints. Do you recite the Apostle’s Creed? If you do, then you profess to believe in the “communion of saints,” but do you even know what that means? I will tell you what it means, and how this belief gives us a biblical foundation for the doctrine of intercessory prayer.

As the word suggests, the communion of saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are committed followers of Christ. In Christ, we are made part of God’s family (1 Tim 3:15), children of God (1 John 3:1), joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17), and partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). This family communion of saints is known to Catholics as the Mystical Body of Christ (1 Cor 10:16; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4, 4:15-16, 5:21-32; Col 1:18, 3:15). We are joined in a supernatural union as members of Christ’s own body, and thus as members of one another. Each of us participates in the divine life of Christ Himself.

Because we as branches are connected to Christ the vine (John 15:1-5), we are also connected to each other. It is the life and grace of Jesus that gives us life and unites us in our common pilgrimage to heaven.

St. Paul emphasizes this unity in Christ’s body in 1 Cor 12:12-27 (especially v. 25-27) and in Rom 12:4-6.

[u]All of this gives us biblical reasons why Catholics ask the saints to intercede [/u]for us:

(1) All Christian are members of Christ’s body and one another (Rom 12:5 and many others).

(2) Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4; Col 3:15).

(3) Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39).

(4) Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom 12:10; 1 Thess 5:11; Gal 6:2).

We are members of Christ’s one body, united in His divine life even beyond the grave, and concerned with each other’s salvation and growth in God’s family. In that union, we call for help and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already won their crown of glory.

Just as in our human families we naturally turn to our siblings for aid and example, how much more should we turn to our supernatural family for help and inspirations.

[b]To your statement that there is only one mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5)……….[/b]

1 Tim 2:5 must be understood in light of 1 Peter 2:5: “let yourselves be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” St. Peter says that Christians share in the one, eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ. Jesus is mediator between God and man because of His Priesthood. Therefore, to share in Christ’s priesthood means to share in His mediatorship, both in heaven and on earth.

1 Tim 2:5 confirms that we share in Christ’s mediation, when we read it in context. In verses 1-7, St. Paul asks Christians to participate in Christ’s unique mediation by offering prayers and intercessions for all men: “this is good and pleasing to God.” We are called to unite ourselves to the one mediator Christ, “who gave himself as a ransom for all,” by praying for all men, through Christ.

Because Christians share in the priesthood of Christ, we share in a lesser and dependent way in His unique mediation, interceding for all men.

Fellow Christians on earth intercede for each other in prayer without contradicting the unique mediation of Jesus Christ. Likewise, there is no contradiction of 1 Tim 2:5 if the saints in heaven intercede for us with their prayers. All prayer, whether in heaven or on earth, is in Christ and through Christ, our one mediator and high priest.

[b]To answer your statement that the saints in heaven can’t hear us…………[/b]

The saints in heaven are alive and with God: “He is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Mk 12:26-27). In Mark 9:4, Jesus is seen conversing with Elijah and Moses. Jesus tells the Good Thief: “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Lk 23:43). In fact, the saints in heaven are more alive than we are. They are free from all sin. They enjoy the fullness of God’s life-giving presence. Flooded with God’s love, they care more about us now than they did on earth.

Just as Paul asked fellow believers (saints) to pray for him (Rom 15:30; Col 4:3; 1 Thess 5:25; Eph 6:18-19; 2 Thess 3:1), now we can ask Paul and the other saints in heaven to pray for us. We are not cut off from each other at death, rather we are brought closer through the communion we share with Christ.

We know that the angels and saints place the prayers of the holy ones at God’s feet (Tob 12:12; Rev 5:8; Rev 8:3-4), supporting those prayers with their intercessions. The martyrs underneath the heavenly altar cry out for earthly vindication (Rev 6:9-11), showing they are aware of, and concerned with, earthly affairs. The angels and saints in heaven will intercede for us before the throne of God if they are petitioned in prayer.

So, why can’t the saints hear us?? Aren’t they more alive now than when they were with us? This medium of communication is Christ Himself----the vine between the branches. We and the saints form one communion, one body of Christ, being members of Him and members of one another. Heb 12:1 tells us that we are surrounded by “a cloud of witnesses.” How could those watching be unconcerned about our welfare? Look at Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:3. The petitions offered as incense to God must be for those on earth. They are offered by those who can help the most, the holy ones in heaven.

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-30), the departed rich man is able to pray to Abraham and intercede for his brothers. This implies that there can be communication across the abyss, and that fraternal charity extends beyond the grave.

We are certain that the saints in heaven enjoy the face vision of God (1 Cor 13:12; 1 Jon 3:2). It is in this vision that they are aware of our prayers to them.[/i]

[phatcatholic]

it looks like someone just wrote their first tract!