Can Non-catholic Worship Please God?

[amarkich]

In light of the Roman Catechism's decree concerning the Church in Article IX on the Creed, can non-Catholic worship please God?

[b]Article IX, One Holy Catholic Church[/b]

[i]Figures of the Church[/i]
Another figure presents itself in the great city of Jerusalem, which, in Scripture, often means the Church. In Jerusalem only was it lawful to offer sacrifice to God, and in the Church of God only are to be found the true worship and true sacrifice which can at all be acceptable to God.

Below is the context of what "outside the Church" means (this applies to the entire Council and Catechism, presumably, unless otherwise noted):


[i]Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church[/i]
Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power.


As you can see, the Catechism makes no distinction as far as the "outside the Church" is concerned. Those who are part of the Church visibly are in the Church. Those who are outside the Church are divided into three categories: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. While all three of these are outside the Church and receive the punishments delegated to such, they receive different punishments based on their degree of knowledge and the amount of evil committed and its gravity. In any event, I simply provide this context because I have just read it recently and also to prevent the argument that non-Catholic worship can please God from claiming that the Church is only referring to those who know Her. This context also gives a huge insight into other issues which until now had been speculative because the context had been called into question. Because the Church Herself has given us a context by which to understand Her judgments, we must humbly submit rather than find some sort of justification to currently held beliefs. In any event, the question is whether or not non-Catholic worship can please God. Further debate on other subjects should only be presented once the first question has been agreed upon by all those involved.

[qfnol31]

Since I'm standing up here at school, I will answer with a short answer.

Yes it can.

I would say that most people that are "heretics" (outside of the Church) are material heretics, and so they do not have full knowledge or culpability. In that case, God still hears them and answers them because they haven't truly denied him.


Is that what you're looking for? Sorry it's so short of an answer, but you know how it is at college, just a random computer here or there.

[jasJis]

amarkich,
For reference, are we to use the current Catechism to establish and define Heretics, Schismatics, and those outside the Church for discussion and debate? (For the record, I do agree 100% that non-Catholic worship is not pleasing to God, but due to the Supremacy of the Catholic Church and it's role as the Wellspring of Grace and Truth on Earth, hold a wider view of what is Catholic Worship.)

[amarkich]

qfnol31 (is there an actual name I should or can be using other than your user name?), those comments may or may not be legitimate, but the Roman Catechism isn't talking about heretics. It is talking about those outside the Church. I am sorry if I confused you. The relevant section is this:

[quote]Article IX, One Holy Catholic Church

Figures of the Church
Another figure presents itself in the great city of Jerusalem, which, in Scripture, often means the Church. In Jerusalem only was it lawful to offer sacrifice to God, and in the Church of God only are to be found the true worship and true sacrifice which can at all be acceptable to God.[/quote]

Anything other than that was simply a means of explaining what "outside the Church" actually meant, according to the Council. Further, it also served as a means of distinguishing between those outside the Church, i.e., an infidel is outside the Church without having knowledge of the Church, so he is not a heretic, but his prayer is still not pleasing to God. This is similar to the idea of "invincible" ignorance. If there is such a thing as invincible ignorance, it neither saves nor condemns. If one is ignorant of the Church, he is not saved by this ignorance; the ignorance does not somehow confer the necessities of salvation. Further, if there is such a thing as ignorance by which the individual has no culpability or fault, then this ignorance in itself would not condemn him, i.e., an invincible ignorant infidel is not punished in Hell for the denial of the doctrines of the Church the same way a heretic is; rather, he is punished for Original Sin and any actual sins committed which cannot be forgiven without the Faith. That was all a means of clarifying what "outside the Church" meant because the Catechism states clearly that only in the Church can there be found worship that is [i]at all [/i]acceptable to God, so clearly, those outside the Church have worship that is not at all acceptable to God. With that being said, the Catechism clarifies who those are that are outside the Church, and the following are given: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. In any event, the question still stands: Can non-Catholic worship please God. I have offered the Church's answer as an argument (if it can even be called that; I don't think it can be an argument properly speaking, for Roma locuta est, causa finita est) to be understood, read, and then not debated, but discussed. I do not even think that discussion is the goal as much as instructing the ignorant is the goal. I really was waiting for everyone to answer: No, the Church says in the Roman Catechism (which I provided) that non-Catholic worship cannot please God. In any event, the ultimate goal is to instruct the ignorant, but I simply offered it in the form of a question. With that being said, any comments are welcome. God bless.

N.B., the Catechism does not say "only Catholic worship is acceptable to God"; it says "only [i]in the Church[/i] is found true worship and sacrifice that can be at all acceptable to God." (emphasis added) There is a huge difference here, so, jasJis, no matter how you define "Catholic worship", the fact remains that those who are outside the Church cannot please God, even if you choose to erroneously classify their worship as 'catholic.' God bless.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Adam, God Bless! I would like to respond if I may.

Now as you know, I am going to argue the theology and interpretation of the Living Magisterium, as outlined in the current catechism.

I believe the crux of the issue is here:

[quote]If there is such a thing as invincible ignorance, it neither saves nor condemns. If one is ignorant of the Church, he is not saved by this ignorance; the ignorance does not somehow confer the necessities of salvation. Further, if there is such a thing as ignorance by which the individual has no culpability or fault, then this ignorance in itself would not condemn him, i.e., an invincible ignorant infidel is not punished in Hell for the denial of the doctrines of the Church the same way a heretic is; rather, he is punished for Original Sin and any actual sins committed which cannot be forgiven without the Faith.[/quote]

Now, I agree that invincible ignorance in and of itself neither saves nor condemns, so we agree on this point. However, what we do not agree on, it seems to me, is the implication that follows.

Because I follow the teachings of the Living Magisterium, which is the only body that can authoritatively and rightly interpret the writings of Scripture, Tradition, and previous Magisterial documents, I hold that there can and does exist a "baptism of desire" and a "baptism of blood."

With this in hand, I can approach the same problem, yet obtain a different answer. I maintain that a person who is visibly outside the Church, but who is in a state of invincible ignorance, and who truly strives to live the [i]imagio dei[/i] that is inscribed in his person may be baptised by desire. Thus, at the death of this person, (assuming he has no mortal sin on his soul), he can obtain heaven because, while not a visible member of the Church, he is, in fact, a member of the mystical Body of Christ - which is the Catholic Church - as a result his implicit desire for the Church, which is propogated, but not caused by, his state of invincible ignorance.


This is the official teaching of the Living Magisterium, as anyone who reads the current catechism will see, and so should be held in a religious submission of mind and will.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[jasJis]

From the Catechism:[quote]818
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272


819
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276[/quote] May I suggest reading it (including the footnotes)?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Sep 15 2004, 01:17 PM'] qfnol31 (is there an actual name I should or can be using other than your user name?), [/quote]
You can call me Zachary if you like. Either's fine with me.

Wow...I just hit 2000 with this post.

Edited September 15, 2004 by qfnol31

[amarkich]

Jeff, sorry I was just using invincible ignorance as an analogy. We can certainly discuss that later, but I was just trying to discuss whether or not those outside the Church can please God in worship. The Catechism of the Council of Trent says that those outside the Church cannot please God in worship (the Catechism states that "outside the Church" means infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons). With that being said, I am questioning whether or not someone thinks that a person outside the Church can offer worship to God which is acceptable to Him. I don't think there is any argument whatsoever for this position, so I am inviting others to try to defend it if they have arguments.

Zachary, thanks, I like that much better and it is easier to type (for some reason I always have 31 in the back of my head as the correct number, but I check anyway). God bless.

[White Knight]

I believe it is possible to please God as a Non-Catholic in Worship.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Adam, I believe that if one properly understands what is meant by "outside the Church" then it is very true that the worship of such a person could never be pleasing to God.

[DominaNostra]

Jeff, it seems that amarkich (Adam?) provided what the Catechis of the Council of Trent said concerning "outside the Church." The Roman Catechism stated the following (from amarkich):

"[i]Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church[/i]
Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power."


As you read there, the Church states that those outside the Church are the following: infidels (who never knew the Church), heretics and schismatics (who know the Church but reject Her), and excommunicated persons (who for some reason have been cut off from the unity of the Church). That is all we have to know for "outside the Church." This section is not only taken from the same Catechism, it is taken from the same section of the Catechism, Article IX on the Creed. The Church clearly has given us the explanation for what is considered outside the Church. This section of the Catechism is entitled "Those who are not members of the Church." This is about as clear as it gets; those outside the Church are infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. While some have never known the Church, they are all outside Her, and none of their worship is pleasing to God; in fact, the Saints have said that their prayers are specifically blasphemies. In any event, the question has already been answered regarding what "outside the Church" means; I presume that you meant that the "proper understanding" is, as the Church says, [i]all[/i] outside the Church. God bless.

[DominaNostra]

bump to Jeff (and anyone else who has an argument)

[jasJis]

Why not address the current Catechism and what it says?

[mulls]

ah this is confusing. i would like to see if people settle on a yes or no to this question.


and if no, than why does God answer non-catholic prayers?

[Socrates]

I agree with Jeff on this, but don't really have much to add.

I must say, I find this obsession by "Traditionalists" on this site about the salvation, etc. of non-Catholics rather odd and unproductive. We Catholics should follow the Church, and try to bring others into the fullness of the Catholic Faith, which is the only "safe" guarantee of salvation. However, it is simply not our place (as human beings) to judge the souls of others, or whether God is pleased by their worship, etc. Surely the earnest and sincere prayers of one who sincerely loves God, but is perhaps ignorant, through no fault of his own, of the Truth of the Catholic Faith, is not regarded by the All-Just and All-Merciful God as blasphemies offensive to Him!

God alone judges the heart and soul of each individual. We should focus on doing all we can to save our own souls, and the souls of others, but to proclaim others damned to hell, or their prayers to be "blasphemy" is not our place. This is why the Church has never proclaimed the soul of any person to be damned. (This is not to say that none are damned, but that there are no official "anti-saints")

We Catholics should pray for the souls of all. Using argument over who is damned or unpleasing to God for the sake of divisive argument with our fellow Catholics seems to me a self-righteous and un-Christian waste of time.

Our Lord Himself has warned that tax-collectors and prostitutes will enter the Kingdom of Heaven before the Pharisees. Judge not lest ye be judged!