How Do I Answer This...

[P3chrmd]

Talking about Mary/Immaculate Conception/sinless her entire life...a poster posted this...

[quote]but isn't that part of the beauty? that God alowed a Son to be born from a sinful woman??? He alowed His son to also be born in a dirty animal stable.. and to die on an old rough cross...

what is so terrible about the idea that a sinner.. and what's worse a woman sinner! would give birth to His Son... He loved us sooo much... He cares about us... the idea that Marry had to be perfect.. is one of God snubbing us, I mean... think aobut this... Marry Carried Christ for 9 months... we, sinful beasts.. Carry Him for the rest of our lives, some years, some moths, some days... but we, though new Creatures.. are not sinless..[/quote]

She brings up some good points...and Im an amateur...so what is a good way to combat this? THANKS GUYS!

[StColette]

[quote]what is so terrible about the idea that a sinner.. and what's worse a woman sinner! would give birth to His Son.[/quote]

First of all it seems like they may have a slight problem with women. Secondly umm of course a woman would give birth to His Son, afterall men can't have babies.

[quote]I mean... think aobut this... Marry Carried Christ for 9 months... we, sinful beasts.. Carry Him for the rest of our lives, some years, some moths, some days... but we, though new Creatures.. are not sinless..[quote]

This doesn't prove that she was sinful, they have to prove to you one way or another that she had sinned and that she wasn't made perfect.

Now to debate her perfection you can use Luke 1:28 but use the Greek meaning of the words to back up the English since the Greek translation makes it even more clear about Mary being made perfect.

I did a tract using the Greek, Caire Keritomene and I had to add to it so I'll repost to add in the parts that were added during different posts

Proof Of Mary's Immaculate Conception & Sinlessness in Luke 1:28

Luke 1:28 "Caire, kecaritomene"

By examining the meaning of the words which the angel Gabriel spoke to the Virgin Mary it is easy to see that she was immaculately conceived.

For Catholics it is no challenge in understanding that Mary was conceived without sin by simply reading the English version of the Bible verse Luke 1:28. Protestants, on the other hand, do not see beyond the literal meaning of the words "full of grace" or in certain Protestant Bibles "full of grace" is translated as " favored by God". While Catholics still have complete understanding of "favored by God" because the Church Fathers and Popes referred back to the Greek manuscript when declaring that Mary was conceived with out sin. Protestants do not carry on the same usage of the Greek manuscripts as Catholics do. They accept only the English form which merely states " full of grace" or "favored by God". So in order to clarify the true meaning behind the word kecaritomene which stands for "full of grace" in the English version of the Bible we must examine carefully the Greek.

The Angel Gabriel greets Mary as "Caire, kecharitomene!"

Caire means both "rejoice" and "hail"

Kecaritomene is used as a direct address, Gabriel is using the word kecaritomene as a replacement for Mary's name.

The root word of kecharitomene is charitoo which by definition means " to fill or endow with grace " After knowing the meaning of the root word it is clear that both the Catholic and Protestant Bibles use some form of the word "grace" or "favor".

The prefix to the word charitoo is [ke] which is a past participle which makes it clear that Mary's state of grace was preformed before Gabriel's proclamation.
The word kecharitomene not only should mean "full of grace" but rather the word used in the passive participle form means "made full of grace". The term used in the perfect participle as it is used in the Greek manuscript means a perfect and lasting sign of grace.


QUOTE
So let's check out the grammar of it. John Pacheco says the following:
"kecharitomene".. is a perfect passive participle. It means one endowed with favour or grace in a "permanent or perfect" fashion. According to Greek grammatical lexicons, the perfect stem of a Greek verb means the 'perpetuation of a permanent result or completed action'.



Thus since the words base meaning is a perfect and lasting sign of grace this means Mary would had to have been immaculately conceived. The word's meaning which renders " made full of grace " implies that even at Mary's conception she was "made full of grace." Since we all believe that life begins at conception there is no way of stating the use of this word in any other form. Mary "made" = "conceived" full of grace.

Kecaritomene- Noun and Verb

The word kecaritomene can be both used in the form of a verb or in the form of a noun. When the angel Gabriel greeted Mary, he was using kecaritomene in the form of a noun or pronoun, he was replacing her name, Mary, with this word. By calling Mary by this address the name is a direct reflection on the characteristic quality of Mary. Above all the angel Gabriel calls Mary, kecaritomene even before using her real name. Kecaritomene is therefore the name in which God sees Mary which is " full of grace ".

The word kecaritomene is used rarely in the Bible, in fact, I can only find one other time in which it is found and that is in the Letter to the Ephesians. The use of kecaritomene in the Letter to the Ephesians is used in the form of a verb, which means to "bestow grace".

The other time that kecharitomene is used, is in its root word form of "caritow" or "charitoo". However, the meaning is significantly different because the indicator [echaritosen] form is used.

Ephesians 1:6
eiv epainon dochv thv xaritov autou hv exaritwsen hmav en tw hgaphmenw,

Eph:1:6:

"To the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved"

1. We are - caritow charitoo khar-ee-to’-o - "given favor"

Used as a verb in Ephesians 1:6 meaning:

1. to make graceful
charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour to honour with blessings

The use of the word here is in no way the same use as in Luke 1:28. He "bestowed grace" or He "graced" shows a momentary action and doesn't signify a permanent state of grace which is evident in Luke 1:28. It also does not hold the same meaning since the use of the it in Luke is defined as being "made full of grace".

Hope this helps

God Bless,
Jennie

[P3chrmd]

THANKS!

[phatcatholic]

also, its important to note that Mary too was made a "new Creature," just like we are when we receive God's sanctifying grace. the only difference is when the grace was received. Mary received it before her birth. we receive it sometime afterwards. in both cases Jesus is making someone a new creature. in both cases, Jesus is saving. it is no mere coincidence that Mary too calls the Lord her Savior.

[Ziggamafu]

cool. what about this one, it's been given to me: "If Mary had to be conceived without original sin for Christ, then Mary's mother would have had to be conceived without original sin for Mary...and so on and so on, perpetually."

I think my lack of a response is due to an incomplete understanding of the Immaculate Conception.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Sep 15 2004, 04:20 PM'] cool. what about this one, it's been given to me: "If Mary had to be conceived without original sin for Christ, then Mary's mother would have had to be conceived without original sin for Mary...and so on and so on, perpetually."

I think my lack of a response is due to an incomplete understanding of the Immaculate Conception. [/quote]
well, the key is that Mary did not HAVE to be sinless in order for Jesus to be sinless. Jesus is God. it doesn't matter if he's born of a sinless woman or a sinful woman.

Mary was sinless not b/c of anything she inherited from her parents but b/c she was saved from sin by Jesus Christ. she was due to inherit original sin just as we do. but she was "saved from the pit" as the saying goes.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Sep 15 2004, 02:20 PM']cool. what about this one, it's been given to me: "If Mary had to be conceived without original sin for Christ, then Mary's mother would have had to be conceived without original sin for Mary...and so on and so on, perpetually."

I think my lack of a response is due to an incomplete understanding of the Immaculate Conception.[/quote]
The Church does not hold that Mary [i]had[/i] to be conceived without original sin in order for Christ to be sinless; instead, the Church holds that it was [i]fitting[/i] that Christ's mother receive the gift of salvation in this manner. Mary is redeemed in an exemplary fashion, but she is redeemed nonetheless, for she receives a preservative redemption, while all other human beings receive a liberative redemption.

[P3chrmd]

I just had someone throw at me "Well why did Mary HAVE to be sinless?" I don't know how to go about answering this...but somehow I know it has to do with her being at complete emnity with Satan...and the new eve!

How would I go about wording it?

[phatcatholic]

P3, go back and read over the previous posts in this thread

Mary did not HAVE to be sinless. we instead contend, like Apotheoun said, that her sinlessness is the most fitting circumstance for the birth of Christ.

[Theoketos]

At the same time we hold it absolutely!

Ave Maria!

James III