New Debate Table Rule...

[dUSt]

Donna,

Please clarify where you think I'm being dishonest.

[marielapin]

You asked in another thread why people are leaving Phatmass. My opinion is that, even if absent for "business reasons", the Hypers and Likos', and Don John and Kilroy and Anna all have one thing in common: they are militant about truth being fixed, and they all have a sensum fideii -  meaning they don't (and maybe can't) disparage or flip off Tradition, but revere it. And live it.

And long for it.

Some people say this is being "overly attached". No one can ever be too attached to the expression of the Faith which pleased Heaven then and still does. Jesus Christ is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. (Hebrews).

And ditto for marieplan who comes not often, and seems to have trouble here thrown at her when she does.

And it's this phorum's great loss.

I see the "dialogue" you henceforth forbid as more crucial than even apologetics with Protestants and what-not. If Catholics are not coherent within themselves as Catholics, forget  the rest.

And we're not coherent, are we?  Not totally; and on important things. This phorum is just a mirror of the state of things today in Catholicism.

You can dismiss my opinion, but not an Anna, a Kilroy, a Hyper, a Likos. And maybe not an Mp 15.

Peace.

You're in my St. Michael novena.

Amen.

I agree 100%.

And I'm around very often actually, its just been that I've been a bit...well...afraid to post in the Debate section. With due reason.

[PedroX]

Dust,

I for one thank you. While it may mean giving up some exchange and information, it also means that I no longer have to fear being condmed because I like my masses more traditional or that I support unions or whatever. I appreciate the care you are excercising in your role as moderator. When Protestants look at us wrangling over obscure points of practice and acting as inquisitors over political issues it must be hard for them to see our much vaunted unity. They must wonder how there is "One True Church" when we can't even be pollite to each other. I am sorry to lose the educational value of hearing Donna or Don John explain things, but I will gladly give it up for more charity.

peace...

[marielapin]

But given the general audience of the people here, it's like discussing professors debating high-level quantum physics in a classroom of 8th graders.  Some will follow the general idea, but most lack the depth of knowledge to understand and benefit and will misunderstand most of the discussion.

Jas, even though I see your point and understand where you are coming from,

how is the discussion between nuances ANY different than the threads:

Thomism Vs. Mollinism

St. Augustine Rejected Sola Fide, The Doctor of Grace

Pelagianism

Deuterocanonical Doctrines

The Rosicrucian Connection, I'm confused

I could find more, but my point is, all these posts, especially the one about Sola Fide, is extremely like your professors debating high-level quantum physics example. Most people are not going to understand them without a lot of study.

So how high level Catholic vs Protestant is ok and trad vs modern isn't.

[Anna]

We are to be all things to all men. 

Unless they're Catholic adults with questions about their Faith?

Some will follow the general idea, but most lack the depth of knowledge to understand and benefit and will misunderstand most of the discussion.

Does this stop the Pope from writing encyclicals? Some will misunderstand? There was a request for a board for the older pmers awhile back...I posted, thinking it was a good idea. It might not have gotten the traffic of the other threads, but it would have been a good place for the more mature Catholic to Catholic discussion.

Those under 20 have an entire board to themselves. But the grownups can't discuss their Faith here, and questions about their Faith, for fear the young 'uns might misunderstand. Adults can't have questions, or (if they do) they'd better keep them to themselves, or take them elsewhere.

Unless of course, the dishonesty you accuse dUSt of having is really you not willing to give up the bully pulpit you've enjoyed here so far.

Maybe you should go back and read the Word Up board again? Donna has no bully pulpit here. She is a lone voice in the wilderness!

Perhaps the dishonesty comes in saying that you want all to feel welcome... That we are phamily...Where people come to learn about their Faith, understand It, and grow in It. This is the last place I ever thought I'd receive a gag order...

Me: Calgon, take me away!!!!

Pax Christi. <><

Out.

Edited September 26, 2003 by Anna

[dUSt]

"Perhaps the dishonesty comes in saying that you want all to feel welcome... That we are phamily...Where people come to learn about their Faith, understand It, and grow in It. This is the last place I ever thought I'd receive a gag order..."

Anna,

I'm sorry you feel that way. I simply don't want Catholic vs Catholic debates here. I don't pretend that phatmass is a place for all people to discuss all topics. Of course everybody is welcome, and I want everyone to stay and contribute to the phorum, but there are certain things that I feel don't benefit the Church.

If these types of arguments have led me personally to start to doubt my faith, what do you think it's doing to other people?

There's nothing wrong with gag orders. I've also prohibited talk about sexuality--why no complaints about that?

Anyway. This isn't up for debate. There will be no Catholic vs Catholic debate regarding liturgy on this phorum.

God bless.

[jasJis]

marelapin,

There is a difference between contentious Catholic vs Catholic debate and contentious Protestant vs Catholic debate. The other topics aren't directly rooted in Catholic vs Catholic questioning or challenging the Magesterium's ability or actually remaining faithful to the Faith. The Trad/Liberal debate tends to do so, because both sides have some who have gone to the extreme and become schismatic. The misunderstanding of the nuances of that debate can cause doubt and dissention. Look at how much we misunderstand each other when we discuss other stuff?

The bottom line also lies in following a properly formed conscience. If people are just learning to do that with the basic things in following the faith, debate over Novus Ordoro, dedication of Russia to Mary, etc., do not help.

Face it. Some people here are still getting learning to go to Mass every Sunday because the WANT to, not just because they are obligated to. Why add doubt by debating about the validity of the Mass or the Pope going against Tradition?

If we don't know for sure, the default moral compass is our Bishop and Priest. To say otherwise is to risk diminishing the authority of the Church below one's intellect.

Anna,

No, it is not 'Unless they're Catholic adults with questions about their Faith?'. That's disingenuous to say that as it's been pointed out not everything may be appropriate for all who visit here.

No, lack of understanding doesn't stop the Pope from writing encyclicals, but also keep in mind, Christ gives us Bishops and Priests and other learned persons to help us. I do not believe I'm learned enough to challenge the Pope's encyclical. I owe obedience to my Bishop and priest before my misguided pride in my own intellect. If I disagree with the Church, I've learned it's probably my lack of understanding, not my Bishop or my priest.

It's up to dUSt's disgression to decide who visits and what age appropriate boards he wants to have. The difference between the traffic is probably due to the difference of the ages of the people who come here. This is Phatmass that is cool, hip, and putting out a hip-hop CD. It's geared for younger people. Us old people have to keep that in mind. There' plenty of old people boards out there for us to debate on. Why does phatmass have to provide it?

I'm quite aware of the Word Up readings. A Bully Pulpit is espousing a viewpoint where people are not expecting it or can leave. Donna can give her opinion, but not all the young people who come here are expecting challenges like hers.

Get real honest. Do you want phatmass the way YOU or I want it to be? It's not honest to think Phatmass can be everything to everyone. It's a ministry to the Youth. All are welcome who want to keep in mind that it's for the greater good of the youth that visit, not the selfish good of what we want for ourselves.

[marielapin]

marelapin,

There is a difference between contentious Catholic vs Catholic debate and contentious Protestant vs Catholic debate.  The other topics aren't directly rooted in Catholic vs Catholic questioning or challenging the Magesterium's ability or actually remaining faithful to the Faith.  The Trad/Liberal debate tends to do so, because both sides have some who have gone to the extreme and become schismatic.  The misunderstanding of the nuances of that debate can cause doubt and dissention.  Look at how much we misunderstand each other when we discuss other stuff?

The bottom line also lies in following a properly formed conscience.  If people are just learning to do that with the basic things in following the faith, debate over Novus Ordoro, dedication of Russia to Mary, etc., do not help. 

Face it.  Some people here are still getting learning to go to Mass every Sunday because the WANT to, not just because they are obligated to.  Why add doubt by debating about the validity of the Mass or the Pope going against Tradition?

If we don't know for sure, the default moral compass is our Bishop and Priest.  To say otherwise is to risk diminishing the authority of the Church below one's intellect.

.

I was under the impression that any subject that wasn't explicitly Catho vs prots/atheist does not have a place here.

I still do not understand what is off limits and what is not.

ok so Novus Ordo and Dedication of Russia to Mary are off limits. What about Marian apparitions? There are debaters on both sides that are Catholic? What about specific abuses? What about female altar girls?

I think that the rules should be better laid out, for stupid folks like me.

What specifically is off limits?

[dUSt]

What specifically is off limits?

Anything that turns into a Catholic vs Catholic argument regarding liturgy or doctrine--specifically when it begins to represents disunity within the Church.

[marielapin]

Anything that turns into a Catholic vs Catholic argument regarding liturgy or doctrine--specifically when it begins to represents disunity within the Church.

Does this include discussion such as the validity of Eucharistic Ministers and the Altar Gather?

[dUSt]

Okay. The Back Alley has returned.

It's password protected.

E-mail me or private message me if you want it.

You can talk about anything you want in there.

It's a free-for-all.

God bless.

[cmotherofpirl]

CAn you make some holy water available?

[mp15]

Anything that turns into a Catholic vs Catholic argument regarding liturgy or doctrine--specifically when it begins to represents disunity within the Church.

But dUSt that is part of the problem. There is disunity within the church. To pretend that there isn't is doing everyone a disservice. I say confront the problems head on with the truth. Don't hide it and pretend that it doesn’t exist. I was getting a lot out of the Traditional thread you locked, and was starting to understand what Cmom was saying. Now if that can't be discussed how will others and I benefit from such discussions?

Look, I am truly sorry to hear that these types of discussions have been a cause for you to start to doubt your faith. But on the opposite side of that I have been losing my faith steadily over the past months precisely over this very point. If Catholics (and that includes me) are so closed minded as to not want to talk about our differences then what is the point of staying Catholic? We are all on a journey, and throwing up roadblocks does everyone a disservice. We can all learn a thing or two. We are never too old or too young to learn. I would love for there to be a discussion about alter girls, but I’m sure that would be off limits.

Once again, I understand it is your board and you can make any rule you want. If that is your final answer then that is fine by me. You asked for input as to what I felt was wrong with Phatmass, well this is part of the problem. If you want this site to be for the younger crowd only, then just say so, and that will be that.

[dUSt]

mp,

I just opened the Back Alley. Continue the trad discussion there. This is now a non-issue.

God bless.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

"ARE YOU READY FOR A WAR!!"