goldenchild17 Posted September 26, 2004 Author Share Posted September 26, 2004 Okay, that's what I figured. I was just wondering what ya'll thought about the "limbo" theory or whatever it's called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Father Mateo Archives, October 3, 1993, Limbo Actually, my wife and I just completed the preparation class for baptism. We are baptizing our four week old son this week. At the class, the facilitator, who is the family life counselor at our parish, asked if any of us were baptizing our children because of limbo. I was surprised by the question. She explained the church doesn't really teach this doctrine anymore. Would you explain the official doctrine on the subject. I'm curious to find out what the official teaching is and the basis for the teaching. Dear Daniel, The condition of the Saints of the Old Testament (Adam, Abraham, John the Baptist, etc.) before Christ's redemption opened heaven to them is called the Limbo of the Fathers. As the Creed announces, Christ went there to announce to them the glad news that redemption was at last accomplished. This is the only doctrine of Limbo that the Church has ever held and still holds today. The notion of a Limbo for unbaptized babies never was a doctrine of the Church and the Church never taught it. At most it was a speculation on the part of certain theologians, and one never hears of it nowadays. There is no "official doctrine on the subject." God has not revealed the destiny of babies who die before baptism. Two practical suggestions: 1) We should pray for such babies and commend them to God's merciful care; we should also pray that parents will hasten to have their babies baptized soon after birth. To delay a baby's baptism is a serious abuse and a sin. (Parents should not wait several weeks until the whole family can gather and celebrate. Baptism is a sacrament necessary for salvation; it is not a mere social or family celebration.) 2) We should watch our language when teaching religion. For example, it is most unfortunate to hear statements like "the Church doesn't really teach this doctrine anymore." If it's a doctrine it can never be changed or dropped. Sincerely in Christ, Father Mateo [url="http://www.cin.org/mateo/m931103j.html"]http://www.cin.org/mateo/m931103j.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 26, 2004 Author Share Posted September 26, 2004 Question. What is being said here and how can I reply... [quote]Furthermore, the Catholic Church does not hold to an ex opere operato view of the efficacy of the sacraments only in regards to those under the age of reason.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 There is some stuff on limbo in the refference section under Last Things. I would go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 (edited) [quote name='goldenchild17' date='Sep 26 2004, 01:26 AM'] Question. What is being said here and how can I reply... [/quote] [quote][b]IV. The Sacraments of Salvation[/b] 1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power. 1128 This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation49 that the sacraments act [b]ex opere operato [/b](literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed"), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them. 1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior. [/quote] [url="http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:eL4I9S7M9ZIJ:www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect1chpt1art2.htm+ex+opere+operato+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8"]http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:eL4I9S7...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8[/url] What this person said is not true. For adults as long as faith is present baptism is effective. Although, "the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them." Edited September 26, 2004 by Cure of Ars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 27, 2004 Author Share Posted September 27, 2004 But is he saying? I don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 [quote name='goldenchild17' date='Sep 27 2004, 02:53 PM'] But is he saying? I don't understand. [/quote] go back thru this thread. i may have already answered your question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 27, 2004 Author Share Posted September 27, 2004 Yeah, thanks. I'll try to study it more. I'm just confused I guess, about the ex operato thingy. I don't really understand it, or what arguments scripturally are made for it or against it. I'll keep reading though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 u should PM Apotheoun and see what he says i don't entirely understand it myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 29, 2004 Author Share Posted September 29, 2004 A couple things more... [quote]I still dont see why the sacraments necessarily are the only means of grace in the NT. They are appointed means, but why must they be the only appointed means? Why must God always work through them? Where has He claimed He would do so always?[/quote] I'm not sure I explained this very well. I was trying to talk about how God instituted the sacraments as a means of conferring His grace. [quote]Hmm, I am confused. If the sacraments automatically confer grace, regardless of the recepient, then why is it said that when the sacraments are "Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify"? Why do the "fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them"? [/quote] What about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 [quote name='goldenchild17' date='Sep 29 2004, 01:38 PM']A couple things more... [quote]I still dont see why the sacraments necessarily are the only means of grace in the NT. They are appointed means, but why must they be the only appointed means? Why must God always work through them? Where has He claimed He would do so always?[/quote] I'm not sure I explained this very well. I was trying to talk about how God instituted the sacraments as a means of conferring His grace.[/quote] well, they are not the only means of grace, but they are the only [i][b]sure [/b][/i]means. for instance, God probably gives us actual grace when we pray for things. but, he doesn't always do this. he may not want to give us what we ask for, in which case we would not receive grace. but, how do we know if we have recieved it or not? often times we have to rely on our own subjective feelings, which can betray us. however, we know that w/o a shadow of a doubt, every single time we participate in a sacrament, we recieve his grace. no questions, no doubt, no reliance on my feelings. just a promise that he always keeps. [quote][quote]Hmm, I am confused. If the sacraments automatically confer grace, regardless of the recepient, then why is it said that when the sacraments are "Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify"? Why do the "fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them"?[/quote] What about this?[/quote] i am unsure.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 [quote]Hmm, I am confused. If the sacraments automatically confer grace, regardless of the recepient, then why is it said that when the sacraments are "Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify"? Why do the "fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them"?[/quote] I'm not really sure what they are getting at, except maybe with the example of Communion. When we have sin upon us we are shut off from the graces of God, until we have confessed our sins and have become pure in heart once again. If you receive Communion with mortal sin upon your soul the graces within the Communion are not given to you and you are committing sacrilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted October 1, 2004 Author Share Posted October 1, 2004 I am having difficulty with that last one. If the sacraments do automatically confer grace then isn't it contradictory to say that it depends on the disposition of the recipient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 [quote name='goldenchild17' date='Oct 1 2004, 02:18 AM'] I am having difficulty with that last one. If the sacraments do automatically confer grace then isn't it contradictory to say that it depends on the disposition of the recipient. [/quote] Like I said, when we are in mortal sin we are cut off completely from God's graces, the sacraments themselves would still hold these graces but we would be unable to receive them because of the mortal sin upon us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 ok, here's my question: if i'm an adult convert to catholicism, and i'm going to be baptized, but i don't believe that my baptism will actually do anything..........will it still do something? will it still cleanse me of my sin? the answers to these questions essentially give goldenchild the answer he's looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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