Suffering

[Donna]

Re: the topic question:

Yes.

[carrdero]

[quote]StColette writes: So just because it says that it's "a bible" on the front page of the introduction you believe it is ?[/quote]

I guess that question could be asked of anyone who has a book that they call their Bible. I can believe all I want. Believing is free. I have a bit of an advantage with my Bible because I was there during it’s creation, I K(NOW) that the event indeed took place. Though getting other people to believe is not my responsibility nor does it shake my belief.

[quote]StColette writes: Any book could say it's "a bible" for example say some author wrote a book that was totally fictional but put "this is a bible" on the introductory page. We would know that this isn't a true Bible.[/quote]

Actually if you ask any author who has written a book (fiction or non-fiction) any author would feel that their writings are sacred or from the heart and possibly inspired from some source. Have you ever read a timely book? A book that you read (be it fiction or non-fiction) that offered some type of insight that was currently needed at that time in your life? Why can’t we glean something from those moments?

[quote]StColette writes: Discerning what is true Scripture and what isn't is very important.[/quote]

I agree. Unfortunately our means of discerning what is TRUE and what is UNTRUE is somewhat hampered. Pride, stubbornness, ego, faith, hope, unawareness all stand in the way of discerning GOD’s TRUE word.

[quote]StColette writes: The authors of the books of the Bible were inspired by God and thus wrote the words which God inspired them to write.[/quote]

So has my book been inspired by GOD. There all still people being inspired by GOD. GOD never mentioned that our Bibles were finished just that particular volume.

[quote]StColette writes: This example of "a bible" that you gave is showing something that clearly is taking away and adding to the true Bible.[/quote]

Taking away how? I still incorporate THE BIBLE and some of it’s scriptures into my life as I do other books that I enjoy. I would think that in today’s world we could use as much K(NOW)ledge and understanding that we can possibly obtain. I have nothing against THE BIBLE as a book (whether it be PROVEN to be fiction or non-fiction).

[quote]StColette writes: But The King James Version has many errors and has books missing from it which makes this Bible version null and void because they took away books of the Bible that were in the original Canon of Scripture which this Canon of Scripture indicated that those books were true Scripture.[/quote]

I have read through many translations and studied many man-made interpretations of THE BIBLE. One of my inspirations that made me arrive to my Bible was the authors of the Ancient Scriptures. I figured if they could have REALationship with GOD so could I and I was surprised that GOD is available and still taking people’s questions. What I discovered was that I had a lot of questions so why not document them so that I would have something to refer to later.

[quote]StColette writes: Umm no one can write their own Bible.[/quote]

Lo and behold I am holding it in my hand even as I type. It is real. Anyone can write their own Bible, with the different belief systems and different lifestyles people lead everyone has a Bible within them and someday I would enjoy reading them. It is a serious commitment to complete a book of this significance about an entity that someone really desires to understand and I am aware that many
people would not want to pursue this endeavor. Some people are fine with the Bible they have.

[quote]StColette writes: There's only one correct form of the Bible and the books within it are the Word of God.[/quote]

GOD cannot be contained to one book or one moment of time.

[quote]StColette writes: God never allowed people to write their own Bible so I'm not to sure where you got that idea at.[/quote]

I am aware of at least 62 authors that were allowed to write their own Bibles. Most of them were THE BIBLE authors.

[quote]StColette writes: God inspired the writing of one Bible.[/quote]

GOD inspired many authors to write many books. Man was the deciding factor to bind them into one book.

[quote]StColette writes: How did you come to the conclusion that the words within that book in which you trust as "a bible" is the Truth that has been in existence since before the creation of the earth ? [/quote]

TRUTH in these matters is very difficult to discern. Humans could spend many lifetimes PROVING and DISPROVING the TRUTHS in any Bible. The best evidence that I can give in my Bible’s defense is that the entity that did inspire me says that he/she was GOD and the TRUTHs that GOD and I have discussed stand to reason against other beliefs that have been explained or encouraged in my lifetime.

I have read the other posts about staying on topic and if St. Collette or any other PM members would be ineterested in discussing this further we can find a thread that is already debating Bible translations or they can e-mail me at my address.

[carrdero]

Now back to this salvation through suffering topic.

I want everyone to relive the moments after Jesus was arrested, right up until the moment he passed away in the physical. You can use any references you may think of; THE BIBLE, movies, other books. The important thing here is to obtain an accurate image of the suffering that Jesus went through and then I want you to volunteer someone that is close to you (or yourself) and tell me that you would want/expect/desire someone/anyone to go through this same exact procedure of suffering because it is necessary for his/her/your life.

[carrdero]

[quote]White Knight writes: Suffering is necessary to become more Christ Like. [/quote]

Couldn’t we focus on the more positive aspects of Jesus’ ministry? Love, consideration, respect for other humans. Wouldn’t we be well remembered for positively portraying these aspects of Jesus’ life? There is nothing really impressive about dying, everybody can do it and we are really good at it too. What we haven’t perfected yet are these other positive qualities of Jesus’ life.

[PedroX]

Off topic:

One of my favorite cookbooks of all time was the "Cake Bible". I don't know that I would want to live my life by it, but it had great recipes!!

On topic:

Carrdero:

I would indeed volunteer for that suffering if it meant that it would save souls from Hell. In fact, it was that suffering that allowed humanity to be saved from Hell. The Epistle to the Hebrews makes it clear "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins". The saints through the ages and the many apparations of the Blessed Mother stress over and over that we must endure our sufferings for the sake of our souls. Fastings, kneeling in prayers, accepting the pain of living in this "vale of tears". All of these merit graces.

Also, I would suggest that you look into a good, object history of religions. The new age mumbo jumbo bears only the most superficial aspects in common with any historic pagan worship. The Da Vinci Code is neither objective, nor history.

peace...

[White Knight]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 16 2004, 11:05 AM']
Couldn’t we focus on the more positive aspects of Jesus’ ministry? Love, consideration, respect for other humans. Wouldn’t we be well remembered for positively portraying these aspects of Jesus’ life? There is nothing really impressive about dying, everybody can do it and we are really good at it too. What we haven’t perfected yet are these other positive qualities of Jesus’ life. [/quote]
But that was the whole Propose of Christ's life, was the die for us, not how he lived, even though that "IS" important, its not "The" main reason why he came.


[b]He came to the Earth as a Living Sacrifice, to die for humanities sins, all of them, past, present, future, From the Gerneration of Adam and Eve, to the Last Generation before his Glorious Return. He died for our sins, so that we may be forgiven of our sins, and have a relationship him, He died so we may be able to have to obtian SALVATION, He Conqeurored Death, Hell, and the Grave, by doing this act as well, He Proved it by rasing from the Dead on the Third Day. Yes, his life was important, to teach, Love, Forgiveness, and the Will of the Heavenly Father, But his ULTAMITE GOAL was the DIE for Humanities Sins, so we May have Forgiveness of our sins, have a relationship with Him, and have Salvation.[/b]


The Lord Jesus Christ's life was Important, but His Death was the MAIN Event, It was his reason for being here,


You can't have Christ-MAS without Easter, can't have Easter without Christ-MAS.

[carrdero]

[quote]But that was the whole Propose of Christ's life, was the die for us, not how he lived, even though that "IS" important, its not "The" main reason why he came.[/quote]

Yes but cows. pigs, chickens, fish and plants die everyday so that humans can live with the EXPECTANCY of sinning. These entities are dying the death of Jesus everyday all over the world. Should we martyr the lives of these entities as well? Should I wear an albatross hammer around my neck, or a fishing pole or an egg or an apple tree in respect of these other entities? Should we erect churches and sing praises and worship these entities who have given up their lives just so that we can live only to suffer? Are you going to try to convince me that the lives of plants and animals are insignificant because they are not human?

[quote]You can't have Christ-MAS without Easter, can't have Easter without Christ-MAS. [/quote]

What does Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny have to do with all of this?

[quote]The Lord Jesus Christ's life was Important, but His Death was the MAIN Event, It was his reason for being here[/quote]

[quote]He came to the Earth as a Living Sacrifice, to die for humanities sins, all of them, past, present, future, [/quote]

So how is this all working out? Did everyone stop sinning?

[jasJis]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 17 2004, 08:29 AM']
Yes but cows. pigs, chickens, fish and plants die everyday so that humans can live with the EXPECTANCY of sinning. These entities are dying the death of Jesus everyday all over the world. Should we martyr the lives of these entities as well? Should I wear an albatross hammer around my neck, or a fishing pole or an egg or an apple tree in respect of these other entities? Should we erect churches and sing praises and worship these entities who have given up their lives just so that we can live only to suffer? Are you going to try to convince me that the lives of plants and animals are insignificant because they are not human? [/quote]
Dude,
This is just silliness. You completely ignore Who and What God is and have relegated Him to how you imagine your imaginary friend. It's pointless discussing this with you because you just resort to sophmoric relativeness and won't engage in a logical philisophical discussion.

Why should we listen to you because you don't want to K(NOW) the truth about anything other than they way you want to define it for yourself. You can't even tell the truth about your name. Is it Carrdero or Cardero?

Oh, and Patrick isn't a genious that's just misunderstood. He's an incredibly stupid and moronic starfish who happens to be nice most of the time.

[White Knight]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 17 2004, 08:29 AM']
Yes but cows. pigs, chickens, fish and plants die everyday so that humans can live with the EXPECTANCY of sinning. These entities are dying the death of Jesus everyday all over the world. Should we martyr the lives of these entities as well? Should I wear an albatross hammer around my neck, or a fishing pole or an egg or an apple tree in respect of these other entities? Should we erect churches and sing praises and worship these entities who have given up their lives just so that we can live only to suffer? Are you going to try to convince me that the lives of plants and animals are insignificant because they are not human?



What does Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny have to do with all of this?





So how is this all working out? Did everyone stop sinning? [/quote]
Easter is not about a dang bunny, or a big old person dressed in red, Christ-Mas and Easter are about Jesus, and the era's of his life, Christ-Mas marks his Birth, Easter, Marks his Resserection.


You have to die to yourself, to become more Christ like, and thats Hard, repentance is what Jesus gave us the ability to do. Come to him for forgiveness of Sins, and Do our absolute best to repent of those sins, not keep commiting them over and over again, and asking for forgiveness, no it doesn't work like that, you have to repent, and be truely sorry, and ask for Forgiveness.


The Pigs, Chickens, etc etc, thing you mentioned, dude they aren't even relative to this issue.... why did you bring them up? Those, CHickens, Pigs, and such, didn't do anything special, Jesus, did something important, those varmits didn't.


The Christ-Mas & Easter things: Stop giving credit to those two fictional characters, I know Saint Nick, was real, but Its not about him, its about Jesus, I dont even wanna mention the dang MEB.

[Theoketos]

Err hum

The Cross is the purpose that organized religion teaches..

nogh said.

[carrdero]

[quote]Pedro X writes: I would indeed volunteer for that suffering if it meant that it would save souls from Hell. [/quote]

What if there wasn’t a Hell? Would your sacrifice be in vain? Do you know that this place actually exists? If there wasn’t a Hell could you not just go through this suffering for one person instead of many?

[quote]Pedro X writes: In fact, it was that suffering that allowed humanity to be saved from Hell.[/quote]

How many people living today are saved from Hell? Let me see your hands. From what I read on these posts Hell is still open for business and people have already been judged to go.

[quote]Pedro X writes: The Epistle to the Hebrews makes it clear "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sins". The saints through the ages and the many apparations of the Blessed Mother stress over and over that we must endure our sufferings for the sake of our souls.[/quote]

So if I put my hand on a burning stove and endure it until I cannot recognize my hand anymore I am absolved from my sins? Is this all it will take? Is this how it works?

[quote]Pedro X writes: Also, I would suggest that you look into a good, object history of religions.[/quote]

How do you think I am able to approach some of these topics if I didn’t have a history of different religions.

[quote]Pedro X writes: The new age mumbo jumbo bears only the most superficial aspects in common with any historic pagan worship.[/quote]

This “new age mumbo jumbo” has been established before the earth was created of course it is going to clash with the doctrine and dogma of established religions. You are not one of those people who think GOD is Catholic/Methodist/Baptist/Born Again/Protestant etc, are you?

[carrdero]

[quote]JasJis writes: You completely ignore Who and What God is and have relegated Him to how you imagine your imaginary friend.[/quote]

It seems that you have already delegated the fact for yourself that you cannot find a friend in GOD, imaginary or otherwise.

[quote]JasJis writes: It's pointless discussing this with you because you just resort to sophmoric relativeness and won't engage in a logical philisophical discussion.[/quote]

You do not need a degree in language and philosophy to K(NOW) and understand GOD. All you need is an open mind and a desire to listen. Stop making GOD difficult, he’s easy like Sunday morning.

[quote]JasJis writes: Why should we listen to you because you don't want to K(NOW) the truth about anything other than they way you want to define it for yourself.[/quote]

What TRUTH are you presenting to me? There’s been a lot of faith flying around but I haven’t been presented with any TRUTH. Anything I post I ask you to consider as a possibility. If you do not believe me I welcome anyone to bring it up with GOD.

[quote]JasJis writes: You can't even tell the truth about your name. Is it Carrdero or Cardero?[/quote]

??????????????????????????

[quote]JasJis writes: Oh, and Patrick isn't a genious that's just misunderstood. He's an incredibly stupid and moronic starfish who happens to be nice most of the time. [/quote]

Nice is good

[carrdero]

White Knight writes: Easter is not about a dang bunny, or a big old person dressed in red, Christ-Mas and Easter are about Jesus, and the era's of his life, Christ-Mas marks his Birth, Easter, Marks his Resserection.

Apparently someone forgot to inform the American dept stores about this. When I go to the mall during these holidays it is not Jesus’ lap that parents put their children on and get a picture taken with.

White Knight writes: The Pigs, Chickens, etc etc, thing you mentioned, dude they aren't even relative to this issue.... why did you bring them up?

Oh, I'm sorry, haven't you heard? Apparently there are many entities (like Jesus) who are "sacrificing" their lives everyday so you can live. I figured from your posts that you feel somewhat honored when other entities sacrifice themselves so that you can survive/live/suffer/repent. Though this could be a misunderstanding on my part. I was just wondering do you also feel honored about these other entities dying so that you may live or are their lives insignificant? Isn’t the issue suffering through death, making the ultimate sacrifice? Do these other entities deserve the honor/applause/worship/adoration that you express to Jesus?

White Knight writes: Those, CHickens, Pigs, and such, didn't do anything special, Jesus, did something important, those varmits didn't.

Oh, other entities dying, sometimes suffering violent deaths, so that you can live is not special or important enough for you? Do you take these sacrifices for granted? So tell me, what did Jesus do in his life that was so important that we cannot do in our present lives?

White Knight writes: The Christ-Mas & Easter things: Stop giving credit to those two fictional characters, I know Saint Nick, was real, but Its not about him, its about Jesus, I dont even wanna mention the dang MEB.

Though I am not giving credit to these two characters I am becoming very concerned where some people are beginning to blur their own reality by comparing GOD and Jesus to these fictional characters.

[jasJis]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 19 2004, 09:16 AM'] ?????????????????????????? [/quote]
[quote]It seems that you have already delegated the fact for yourself that you cannot find a friend in GOD, imaginary or otherwise. [/quote]How can you say that I don't find a friend in God? Based on what. It's far from the truth, I haven't said anything indicating that, yet you post that conclusion or assumption as if it was based in something in reality.
[quote]You do not need a degree in language and philosophy to K(NOW) and understand GOD. All you need is an open mind and a desire to listen. Stop making GOD difficult, he’s easy like Sunday morning.[/quote]I'm a high-school grad. I don't have a degree in anything. I do know God, have a desire to listen to Him, hear Him, and know Him as best I humanly can. What am I doing to make God difficult to know? I haven't written a book like you. I don't attempt to re-create the wheel in how to get to know God. I simply look to what has been learned by others as an aid and guide to get to know God better. What makes you any smarter or more authorative than I or the Catholic Church?
[quote]What TRUTH are you presenting to me? There’s been a lot of faith flying around but I haven’t been presented with any TRUTH. Anything I post I ask you to consider as a possibility. If you do not believe me I welcome anyone to bring it up with GOD. [/quote]You ignore the Truth. Denying something or closing you eyes doesn't make it disappear. You don't just post your points a possibility. That would mean you pose it as a question to consider. Instead, you contradict. Logic and reason can be used to consider and evaluate things. Faith is quite compatible with, and in fact needs reason. You dismiss what we say as "faith" and try to deny the reasonableness of it. I have these things up with God and I have the understanding you are denying Him.
[quote]Nice is good[/quote]Nice IS good. Evil is found in many forms and wickedness tries to coat itself with sugar.

Bluntly: I think you are very misguided with pride and arrogance and your book serves only to mislead people away from God and away from the aid of others. It is philosophically wrong, makes unreasonable conclusions and assumptions, and you yourself are here only to promote your 'book' in order to enrich yourself.

Edited September 19, 2004 by jasJis

[carrdero]

[quote]JasJis writes: How can you say that I don't find a friend in God?[/quote]

I could be mistaken but it doesn’t sound like you are approaching the entity GOD like you would if you were encouraging your other friendships or relationships.
For example, if I wanted to have a REALationship with Elvis and I read a few books about Elvis do I really have a REALationship with Elvis? No, I do not. If I encountered a few people who knew Elvis and they recounted their moments of Elvis to me, do I really have a REALationship with Elvis. No, I do not. If I went to Graceland (Elvis’ house) 52 times out of the year do I have a REALationship with Elvis? No, I do not. If I bought a hat that Elvis once wore and put it atop my head, do I have a REALationship with Elvis? No, I do not.

[quote]JasJis writes: I haven't written a book like you.[/quote]

I think you may have to forget the prospect that I have written a book. I was not invited to Phatmass to promote my book. I was invited to Phatmass to debate spiritual issues. The fact that I did write a book about GOD is irrelevant unless you choose to debate matters about GOD through literature. I do not expect you to have written a book like me about GOD. I do not need a book to express my experiences about GOD to other people.

[quote]JasJis writes: I don't attempt to re-create the wheel in how to get to know God.[/quote]

Either have I; the wheel was already invented before I was born into this physical existence. The only difference is that I have chosen to finally interview the creator of the wheel instead of talking to the salespersons.

[quote]JasJis writes: What am I doing to make God difficult to know?[/quote]

For one thing in your post you welcome me to “engage in a logical philisophical discussion” about GOD as I explained before, GOD doesn’t subscribe/pledge to human philosophy/religion/politics and I wish people could become aware of this. We cannot bend GOD to our current understanding. If you want to K(NOW) about GOD, ask him, GOD has nothing to hide.

[quote]JasJis writes: I simply look to what has been learned by others as an aid and guide to get to know God better.[/quote]

Have you looked into what everyONE has learned about GOD? Or have you looked through one window? Learning from others about certain matters may be ideal but if there are many perspectives on a particular subject this can cause confusion and may not put you in the state of understanding where you want to be. In the case of learning about other entities I find that if you have a desire to get to K(NOW) someone it is better to go right to the source.

[quote]JasJis writes: What makes you any smarter or more authorative than I or the Catholic Church?[/quote]

I think that just the fact that you do not have to be smarter or hold an authoritative position to K(NOW) GOD better is more than understanding enough.

[quote]JasJis writes: You ignore the Truth.[/quote]

How can you ignore something that wasn’t there to begin with? I will respect your beliefs but I would be very interested to K(NOW) how you came to them and why you believe that way. In most cases people do not understand why they encourage their own beliefs. “Someone told me” and “I learned them from a book” are fine by me but are you doing anything to define and PROVE these beliefs. I can debate beliefs with the best of them but hard evidence doesn’t seem to be forthcoming.

[quote]JasJis writes: Logic and reason can be used to consider and evaluate things.[/quote]

Yes but not in matters concerning glory/holiness/divinity/mysticism/spiritualism/demons/angels/devils/dietys. If these were infallible extensions to logic and reasoning I am sure the lawyers of our society would not waste any time incorporating them into our judicial system.

[quote]JasJis writes: I think you are very misguided with pride and arrogance[/quote]

I think this is a pretty bold judgment from someone who hasn’t bothered to get to
K(NOW) me.

[quote]JasJis writes: and you yourself are here only to promote your 'book' in order to enrich yourself.[/quote]

I think this is a pretty bold judgment from someone who hasn’t read my book. As far as promotion goes I do not think that GOD needs the same PR that Bill Clinton utilizes for his book sales. As far as enriching myself, well I did not need to publish a book about GOD to do that. I think that with what I have learned and from just
K(NOW)ing GOD is enriching in itself. The only reason the book exists is to enrich other people who are also interested in K(NOW)ing GOD. Even GOD’s share of the monetary proceeds (GOD did co-author the book with me) goes to charities to enrich other peoples lives who are less fortunate.

[quote]JasJis writes: Nice IS good. Evil is found in many forms and wickedness tries to coat itself with sugar.[/quote]

Evil spelled backwards is LIVE. (sorry, but that’s all I could think of)