Suffering

[voiciblanche]

Just a thought -

Christ tells us to take up our cross and follow Him, so not to do so would be sinning, and would prohibit us from gaining salvation, right? Accepting our suffering is a way of taking up our own crosses, so would that be to say that suffering is necessary for salvation?

Correct me if/where I'm wrong... it was just something I was thinking about yesterday.

[MichaelFilo]

To follow him would be to allow God's grace toflow through you. Accepting Christ means taking up your cross, so yes, if you reject Jesus, which is unanimous with rejecting your cross, you cannot be saved.

God bless,

Mikey

[Apotheoun]

Christ's passion continues in His body the Church, and will continue until His parousia at the end of time.

[Oik]

Suffering is the way of the christain. However, we must suffer according to God's will, that is, we must suffer in humble surrender.

[StColette]

Hey Amber I dunno if you read this tract [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=19656"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=19656[/url]

I wrote it a week or so ago about Suffering with Christ, it might be of some help

God Bless,
Jennie

[carrdero]

There is nothing romantic about suffering. Through observance and K(NOW)ledge you should recognize it, preferably before it unfolds. Through experience and awareness you should avoid it (like animal scat). We weren’t created to suffer we were created to endure.

[StColette]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 13 2004, 09:45 PM'] Through experience and awareness you should avoid it (like animal scat). [/quote]
Glory be to God !

I'm not understanding how you get that we are to try and avoid suffering. Because all through the Bible it says we are to accept the sufferings that come upon us. The Bible never says for us to avoid suffering.

Luke 9:23
23 Then he said to all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

To be a true disciple of Christ we are to each take up our own cross meaning our sufferings. Christ does not say to avoid suffering but rather to embrace the cross which each of us bear.

Rom. 8:17
17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

St. Paul calls us heirs of God but only if with suffer with Christ can we be glorified with him.

Rom. 8:18
18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us.

The sufferings that we experience here on earth while we are alive are nothing in comparison with the glory to be revealed for us after our suffering is over here on earth.

more examples of this can be found at [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=19656"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=19656[/url]

God Bless,
Jennie

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Sep 13 2004, 09:45 PM'] There is nothing romantic about suffering. Through observance and K(NOW)ledge you should recognize it, preferably before it unfolds. Through experience and awareness you should avoid it (like animal scat). We weren’t created to suffer we were created to endure. [/quote]
[quote][b]Your Cross[/b]

The everlasting God has in His wisdom foreseen from eternity the cross that He now presents to you as a gift from His inmost heart. This cross He now sends you He has considered with His all-knowing eyes, understood with His divine mind, tested with His wise justice, warmed with loving arms and weighed with His own hands to see that it be not one inch too large and not one ounce too heavy for you. He has blessed it with His holy Name, anointed it with His consolation, taken one last glance at you and your courage, and then sent it to you from heaven, a special greeting from God to you, an alms of the all-merciful love of God.
(St. Francis de Sales)[/quote]



[quote]O my God....I thank you and I praise you for accomplishing your holy and all-lovable will without any regard for mine.

With my whole heart, in spite of my heart, do I receive this cross I feared so much!

It is the cross of Your choice, the cross of Your love. I venerate it; nor for anything in the world would I wish that it had not come, since You willed it.

I keep it with gratitude and with joy, as I do everything that comes from Your hand; and I shall strive to carry it without letting it drag, with all the respect and all the affection which Your works deserve.

AMEN. (St. Francis de Sales)[/quote]


Amen

Edited September 14, 2004 by Cure of Ars

[MagiDragon]

[quote]God had one son on earth without sin, but never one without suffering.

~Saint Augustine
[/quote]
*grins* I like this quote . . . it's one of many that i regularly use on my emails.

[Norseman82]

There are certain sufferings that can be avoided and some that cannot (like death). Some people I've known seem to take this as an excuse to turn a blind eye to other people's misfortune.

Remember, even Christ had help carrying His cross!!!

[White Knight]

Yes those who have lived, to accept Christ into their lives, while they still have a life to live, suffering is necessary, but those people who are about to die and accept Christ into their lives before they die, yet cannot do anything more, inless a miricle is provided for them, then I'm not sure.

[DominaNostra]

Are we supposed to suffer a lot as Christians? From my experience we have always done stuff so that we don't have to do as much penance. Like, the things we do in our faith kind of hint that we are not being as penatential (spelling?) as we could be, you know? I remember I saw a clip from a mass from like sometime a long time ago and they were all kneeling and bowing and stuff, but we don't really do this kind of stuff now i dont think. Like, they were hitting themselves in the chest during the prayers and had their heads bowed, but I dont do this during Mass, are we supposed to? Also, I heard that people used to go to Confession more, but people dont really go anymore, maybe once every few years, you know. Arent we supposed to rejoice and be glad since the Lord has Risen? I thought that is what the church is telling us to do now at least. Maybe you can help me here.

[carrdero]

[quote]StColette writes: I'm not understanding how you get that we are to try and avoid suffering. Because all through the Bible it says we are to accept the sufferings that come upon us. [/quote]

I do not understand why you would want to encourage suffering or even look for it and experience it in your existence. Do you enjoy suffering? Why would you accept a suffering lifestyle if you do not enjoy suffering?


[quote]StColette writes: Because all through the Bible it says we are to accept the sufferings that come upon us. [/quote]

My Bible says differently.

Excerpt from Hello It’s Me An Interview With GOD
Jesus the Christ pg 80

GOD: Jesus did not come down to earth to give you salvation or save you from society’s past sins. He came down to earth to show everyONE to LOVE humankind UNCONDITIONALLY…with ALL your heart and with ALL your power. He believed in BEing willing to die for that LOVE.
DO NOT put any significance into his life that does not exist, for the only person you will disappoint is yourself.


It seems that the point of Jesus’ death has been misunderstood for many people for many years. I would think that the death of Jesus would involve the understanding that we do not have to suffer (like he did) so that we can all learn how to love and endure each other. I cannot think of any wise, loving being, who actually cares for humans like Jesus did would want us to follow and endure the type of suffering that he had to endure. Here is your example, here is your understanding, recognize it, so that it can be avoided. There is no glory in suffering, there are no rewards, there is only experience. If suffering is something that you would like to experience than so BE it. Me personally? I would like to avoid it, if and when I can.

[StColette]

Carrdero, can you provide Biblical verses that support that we must avoid suffering ? I would like to see them because somewhere through the knowledge that I have of the Bible I missed the verses that say we are to avoid suffering.

Just in case you didn't go to that site I provided with Biblical evidence that we are to endure and embrace suffering here it is:

The Catechism says this:

1505 Moved by so much suffering Christ not only allows himself to be touched by the sick, but he makes their miseries his own: "He took our infirmities and bore our diseases." But he did not heal all the sick. His healings were signs of the coming of the Kingdom of God. They announced a more radical healing: the victory over sin and death through his Passover. On the cross Christ took upon himself the whole weight of evil and took away the "sin of the world," of which illness is only a consequence. By his passion and death on the cross Christ has given a new meaning to suffering: it can henceforth configure us to him and unite us with his redemptive Passion.
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Carrying your cross

Matt. 10:38
38 and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Matt. 16:24
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:34
34 He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.

[34] This utterance of Jesus challenges all believers to authentic discipleship and total commitment to himself through self-renunciation and acceptance of the cross of suffering, even to the sacrifice of life itself.

Luke 9:23
23 Then he said to all, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:27
27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

Christ tells us that we must each bear our sufferings and burdens to be true disciples. A true sign of a disciple of Christ is one who will pick up their cross and follow Him. Christ also tells us that those who do not pick up their cross and follow Him are not His disciples. The carrying of our crosses is in no way an empty act. By bearing our burdens and sufferings until the end we are rewarded.

St Ignatius : "Now I begin to be a disciple. I care for nothing, of visible or invisible things, so that I may but win Christ. Let fire and the cross, let the companies of wild beasts, let breaking of bones and tearing of limbs, let the grinding of the whole body, and all the malice of the devil, come upon me; be it so, only may I win Christ." (When he was thrown to the roaring lions to be devoured, he said) "I am the wheat of Christ: I am going to be ground with the teeth of wild beasts, that I may be found pure bread."

Fr Thomas Merton, in The Seven Storey Mountain -- The truth that many people never understand...is that the more you try to avoid suffering, the more you suffer....The one who does most to avoid suffering is, in the end, the one who suffers most.

Teresa Neumann, a German stigmatist -- I resigned myself to the will of God, because the duty of every Christian is to accept the cross the Savior sends....If it were possible I would willingly accept suffering in heaven in order to bring more souls to the Savior.

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Reward of Glory in suffering with Christ

John 12:24
24 Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.

Suffering and death are all part of human life and that without suffering and death we can not have glory in the resurrection.

Rom. 8:17
17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

St. Paul calls us heirs of God but only if with suffer with Christ can we be glorified with him.

Rom. 8:18
18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us.

[18] The glory that believers are destined to share with Christ far exceeds the sufferings of the present life.

The sufferings that we experience here on earth while we are alive are nothing in comparison with the glory to be revealed for us after our suffering is over here on earth.

2 Cor. 1:5-7
5 For as Christ's sufferings overflow to us, so through Christ does our encouragement also overflow.
6 If we are afflicted, it is for your encouragement and salvation; if we are encouraged, it is for your encouragement, which enables you to endure the same sufferings that we suffer.
7 Our hope for you is firm, for we know that as you share in the sufferings, you also share in the encouragement.

[5] Through Christ: the Father of compassion is the Father of our Lord Jesus (2 Cor 1:3); Paul's sufferings and encouragement (or "consolation") are experienced in union with Christ. Cf Luke 2:25: the "consolation of Israel" is Jesus himself.
[7] You also share in the encouragement: the eschatological reversal of affliction and encouragement that Christians expect (cf Matthew 5:4; Luke 6:24) permits some present experience of reversal in the Corinthians' case, as in Paul's.

We share in Christ's sufferings and in accepting them we find comfort in Him.

Saint Augustine (354-430) God had one son on earth without sin, but never one without suffering.

Dives in Misericordial ch. Pope John Paul II : "Christ, precisely as the crucified one, is the Word that does not pass away, and He is the one who stands at the door and knocks at the heart of every man, without restricting his freedom, but instead seeking to draw from this very freedom love, which is not only an act of solidarity with the suffering Son of man, but also a kind of "mercy" shown by each one of us to the Son of the eternal Father.”

Fr. Conrad Schmitt, S.T.--He will reward us for our efforts and bless us in eternity because we tried to deal with life in cooperation with His grace and with the lights He gave us at the time. Then the suffering itself becomes a source of growth in grace and understanding -- and perhaps even a blessing.

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To grow in holiness

Phil. 1:29
29 For to you has been granted, for the sake of Christ, not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.

We are not only to believe in Him but we are also to suffer for Him. This helps us to grow in holiness because it strengths our personal relationship with Christ. We must willingly embrace the sufferings that we are met with. We must not just have faith alone but we must also have faith in suffering for Christ.

Phil. 3:10
10 to know him and the power of his resurrection and (the) sharing of his sufferings by being conformed to his death...

Paul desires to share in the sufferings of Christ so that he can obtain the resurrection . In sharing the sufferings of Christ to gain the resurrection we strengthen ourselves in holiness.

1 Peter 2:19-21
19 For whenever anyone bears the pain of unjust suffering because of consciousness of God, that is a grace.
20 But what credit is there if you are patient when beaten for doing wrong? But if you are patient when you suffer for doing what is good, this is a grace before God.
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.

We are called to suffer for Christ and to endure pain for him. God calls us to suffer with His Son but this is not to harm us in any form, it is rather to glorify us.

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Suffering for the Gospel

2 Tim. 1:8
8 So do not be ashamed of your testimony to our Lord, nor of me, a prisoner for his sake; but bear your share of hardship for the Gospel with the strength that comes from God.

Paul tells Timothy to share in the sufferings of Christ and to bears these sufferings for the Gospel.

2 Tim. 3:12
12 if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.

The followers of Christ will be persecuted and will suffering for following Christ and His Gospel. In suffering and not denying Christ and His Gospel we become more personally related with Christ.

2 Tim. 4:5
5 But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry.

Paul tells Timothy to suffer for his ministry and that we, like Paul, must suffer evangelizing the Gospel.

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Suffering can be a form of punishment

Heb. 12:5-7
5 You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: "My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him;
6 for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges."
7 Endure your trials as "discipline"; God treats you as sons. For what "son" is there whom his father does not discipline?

God permits us to suffer for the punishment of our sins, but He only permits the suffering if it brings about our salvation.

Heb. 12:11
11 At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it.

All discipline is a cause for pain not for joy, but in the end it brings righteousness.

1 Peter 1:6
6 In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials....

Peter tells us that we must suffer various trials but we are to not be discouraged by these trials but we are to understand that they purify us for God.

1 Peter 4:1-2
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same attitude (for whoever suffers in the flesh has broken with sin),
2 so as not to spend what remains of one's life in the flesh on human desires, but on the will of God.

Suffering with Christ gives the Christian the strength to overcome sin.
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Rejoice, Suffering is a gift from God

Rom. 5:2-3
2 through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.
3 Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance,

We are not to feel sorry for ourselves for the sufferings that we go through but rather we must rejoice in our sufferings because they are a gift from God.

1 Peter 4:13
13 But rejoice to the extent that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice exultantly.

Those who take join in their suffering with Christ will rejoice in His glory.

1 Peter 4:16
16 But whoever is made to suffer as a Christian should not be ashamed but glorify God because of the name.

As Christians when we suffer we should not be ashamed but glorify God !!

1 Peter 5:10
10 The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ (Jesus) will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little.

In suffering, God will promise that after our suffering it will ultimately by followed with glory.

St. Augustine: "We ought to celebrate the positive glorious gifts of God, but the worth of God shines in a powerful way to the world when in the midst of suffering we still don't curse God but say "the Lord gave and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord." John Piper "Everywhere a greater joy is preceeded by a greater suffering."

St. Rose of Lima (1586-1617) Without the burden of afflictions, it is impossible to reach the height of grace. The gifts of grace increase as the struggles increase.

Bl. Brother Andre - Thank the good Lord for having visited you with suffering; if we knew the value of suffering, we would ask for it.

St Ignatius of Loyola-- If God causes you to suffer much, it is a sign that he has great designs for you and that he certainly intends to make you a saint.

Br. Lawrence -- Sorrows and suffering can be a paradise if I suffer with God. On the other hand, the greatest pleasure in the world would be like hell to me, if I tasted it apart from Jesus.

St. Rose of Lima -- Lord, increase my sufferings and with them increase Thy love in my heart.
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Through the evidence that can be found within the Bible it is clear to see that we must suffer with Christ to be a true follow of His. We must each carry our cross and not feel burdened by it. We should each rejoice in the burdens and sufferings that come upon us, for they are gifts from God to strengthen our relationship with Him. Through faith and suffering in Christ we are glorified. So as you see it is an extreme necessity that we suffer, because through suffering we gain holiness. Many of the Saints understood suffering so clearly and accepted their sufferings with a smile and with thankfulness to God. They understood that to draw closer to Christ we must suffer with Him as well. We should all try to live by the example of what Christ teaches us in the Bible and look to the Saints as our helpful guides that have gone before us.

God Bless,
Jennie Catherine

[voiciblanche]

Awesome tract, Jennie. I hadn't read it before, but it was quite helpful.