Crazy Speech

[MichaelFilo]

Ok, this is what I got, and I need all I can get as help.

We have a non-denominational man, he explained that the people who went to hell prior to Jesus's birth got a 2nd chance, when Jesus descended into hell, and preached to them. I pointed out there was scripture that went against the fact we had 2nd chances, he goes, well it was written after Jesus, so it only applies to everything after Jesus.

I went on to explain that hell is the greatest punishment, and that anyone in hell who would hear Jesus's message, would know He is God, and would know He is the only way to salvation, so they all would accept him, without thinking over it twice. I pointed out that this would mean that everyone before Jesus was saved, and said it's totally absured..... well he chose to take that position on things....


So, this is why I come here to plea assistance, any help on this.

Just wondering, but was I wrong to say that Elijah went to Heaven. Did he have to wait? If not, then did he get to Heaven before the Way to heaven wasn't available?




More crazieness, he suggests that at thep oint of Jesus's ressuruction, everyone had Jesus in their heart, and so everyone has a chance to accept Him, even if they never heard of Him, and never would.....

I know it's crazy, but can I get some scripture/logic to point out this fallacy.

God bless,

Mikey

[phatcatholic]

from the CCC[list]
[*][b]ARTICLE 5
"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"[/b]

[b]631 [/b]Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477

[b]Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell [/b]

[b]632 [/b]The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

[b]633 [/b]Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

[b]634 [/b]"The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

[b]635 [/b]Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488

[b]IN BRIEF [/b]

[b]636 [/b]By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14).

[b]637 [/b]In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

476 Eph 4:9-10.
477 Roman Missal, Easter Vigil 18, Exsultet.
478 Acts 3:15; Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 15:20; cf. Heb 13:20.
479 Cf. 1 Pet 3:18-19.
480 Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13.
481 Cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26.
482 Roman Catechism I, 6, 3.
483 Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.
484 1 Pet 4:6.
485 Jn 5:25; cf. Mt 12:40; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9.
486 Heb 2:14-15; cf. Acts 3:15.
487 Rev 1:18; Phil 2:10.
488 Ancient Homily for Holy Saturday: PG 43, 440A, 452C; LH, Holy Saturday, OR.
[/list]
i just wanted to post that real quick. more resources and commentary to come later.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[jasJis]

Quick question. Why would it be a 2nd chance? Wouldn't it be the 1st (and only) chance for them? Wouldn't it be correct to say they died in a state of Grace sufficeint to hear the Word of the Savior and had 1 chance to accept Him?

[phatcatholic]

--[url="http://catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5549"]He Descended Into Hell[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/VISHELL.HTM"]Did Jesus Really Visit Hell?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cin.org/mateo/9107282.html"]Limbo of the Fathers/Descent Into Hell[/url]
--[url="http://catholicexchange.com/css/answers.asp?quest=188"]What Did the OT People Believe about Heaven?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q103.htm"]Why Does the Creed Say that Jesus Descended Into Hell?[/url]

[MichaelFilo]

First, quoting the catechism seems to say, Jesus went down, but not to hell with the damned. That basically means, he didn't go to hell to speak to them, but again, this is a non-denom person, he cares as much about the catechism as I care about sporks and the ways you can use them for evil.

With that said, thank you for the help.


Jasjis it's the 2nd chance, because there those who were saved (Elijah) while living, so he stated that on Earth, a person prior to the ressuruction could go to heaven by being really close to God. This is why I ask about Elijiah, and again, anything to help me disprove this to a Protestant (non-denom) would be nice.

God bless,

Mikey

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 13 2004, 04:02 PM'] Ok, this is what I got, and I need all I can get as help.

We have a non-denominational man, he explained that the people who went to hell prior to Jesus's birth got a 2nd chance, when Jesus descended into hell, and preached to them. I pointed out there was scripture that went against the fact we had 2nd chances, he goes, well it was written after Jesus, so it only applies to everything after Jesus. [/quote]
well, it depends on what you mean by the word "hell." if by "hell" you mean the place of the damned, then there are no second chances for the inhabitants of this place. there is even OT verses that prove this:

[b]--Isaiah 33:11-14[/b]
[b]11 [/b]You conceive chaff, you bring forth stubble; your breath is a fire that will consume you.
[b]12 [/b]And the peoples will be as if burned to lime, like thorns cut down, that are burned in the fire."
[b]13 [/b]Hear, you who are far off, what I have done; and you who are near, acknowledge my might.
[b]14 [/b]The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: "Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us can dwell with [i][b]everlasting burnings[/b][/i]?"

[b]--Isaiah 66:24 [/b]"And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, [i][b]their fire shall not be quenched[/b][/i], and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

[b]--Jer 15:14 [/b]I will make you serve your enemies in a land which you do not know, for in my anger a fire is kindled which [i][b]shall burn for ever[/b][/i]."

[b]--Judith 16:17 [/b]Woe to the nations that rise up against my people! The Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment; fire and worms he will give to their flesh; [i][b]they shall weep in pain for ever[/b][/i].

this is not the language of second chances. when it comes to the place of the damned, those who reside there will suffer forever.

if, however, by the word "hell" we mean "the bosom of Abraham" (Luke 16:22) then we know that those who resided there were brought to heaven when Jesus descended into "hell" to rescue them. this "hell" is not the place of eternal punishment for those who turned there back on God. this is waiting room of the righteous who came before Jesus' resurrection, who awaited the day when Jesus would open the gates of heaven for them.

note that these aren't people who are getting a second chance, these are people who are getting what they deserved (heaven) as soon as they were able to reap the reward.

[quote]Just wondering, but was I wrong to say that Elijah went to Heaven. Did he have to wait? If not, then did he get to Heaven before the Way to heaven wasn't available?[/quote]
well, you are correct, but a clarification may be in order. heaven here is the abode of the just who came before God, not the place of the beatific vision. the ultimate paradise where one can see the face of God was closed to all man until Jesus' death and resurrection.

NewAdvent defends this premise with the following words:[list]
[*]In theological usage the name ["limbo"] is applied to (a) the temporary place or state of the souls of the just who, although purified from sin, were excluded from the beatific vision until Christ's triumphant ascension into Heaven ([i][b]the "limbus patrum"[/b][/i]); or (b) to the permanent place or state of those unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal sin, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin alone (the "limbus infantium" or "puerorum").
. . . .
Though it can hardly be claimed, on the evidence of extant literature, that a definite and consistent belief in the limbus patrum of Christian tradition was universal among the Jews, it cannot on the other hand be denied that, more especially in the extra-canonical writings of the second or first centuries B.C., some such belief finds repeated expression; and New Testament references to the subject remove all doubt as to the current Jewish belief in the time of Christ. Whatever name may be used in apocryphal Jewish literature to designate the abode of the departed just, the implication generally is

--that their condition is one of happiness,
--that it is temporary, and
--that it is to be replaced by a condition of final and permanent bliss when the Messianic Kingdom is established.

In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matt. 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet "with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven" (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matt. 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) and in Christ's words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Eph. 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ "also descended first into the lower parts of the earth," and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that "being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit," Christ went and "preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah" (I Pet 3:18-20).

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ's visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were "in prison," as St. Peter says; but, as Christ's own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.
[/list]
thus, you are correct, but it is important to define what is to be understood by the word "heaven" w/in the context of Enoch and the OT.

[quote]More crazieness, he suggests that at the point of Jesus's ressuruction, everyone had Jesus in their heart, and so everyone has a chance to accept Him, even if they never heard of Him, and never would.....[/quote]
i'm not really sure what your opponent is trying to say here. sorry

[quote]I know it's crazy, but can I get some scripture/logic to point out this fallacy. [/quote]
i hope i have given you the info you are looking for.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[MichaelFilo]

Yes you have, and now there is only one last thing, a clarification on the part that I didn't explain well enough, but otherwise, yoru help is so apprecieated, words would do no justice to express the value of apreciation.


He said that everyone (even those who never hear of Christ), after the ressurection, had Jesus in their hearts. No one, even a 90 year old Native American in 34 AD, doesn't have Jesus in their heart, and if they accept Him, they go to heaven......


I do realize that the Church speaks of invincible ignorance, but it's a bit different from what he is saying. Jesus is not in everyones heart, but instead a will to be with God is, and in accepting and living out that will, salvation maybe possible. All I need is to show him that Jesus isn't in someone's heart by sheer virtue that Jesus died for us all, but instead, he comes into someone's heart when they accept him.

God bless,

Mikey

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 13 2004, 06:17 PM'] He said that everyone (even those who never hear of Christ), after the ressurection, had Jesus in their hearts. No one, even a 90 year old Native American in 34 AD, doesn't have Jesus in their heart, and if they accept Him, they go to heaven......

I do realize that the Church speaks of invincible ignorance, but it's a bit different from what he is saying. Jesus is not in everyones heart, but instead a will to be with God is, and in accepting and living out that will, salvation maybe possible. All I need is to show him that Jesus isn't in someone's heart by sheer virtue that Jesus died for us all, but instead, he comes into someone's heart when they accept him. [/quote]
oh, i see now. i guess your response will depend on what he means by "having Jesus in your heart." he may be referring not to the "will to be with God" that you mentioned, but instead the natural law, our inherent ability to know right from wrong. this natural law exists within all of us. it was implanted within us by God when he made us so as to orient us towards a specific end. some scripture that speaks of this natural law includes the following (all verses from the RSV, unless otherwise specified):

[b]Psalms 4:7[/b] (DRV) The light of thy countenance, O Lord, is signed upon us: thou hast given gladness in my heart.

[b]Rom 1:19-20[/b]
[b]19 [/b]Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them.
[b]20 [/b]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. His eternal power also and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

[b]Rom 2:14-16[/b]
[b]14 [/b]When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[b]15 [/b]They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
[b]16 [/b]on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.


we know that this natural law was given to us upon our creation and NOT when Jesus resurrected b/c Paul speaks of man being accountable since the creation of the world.

of course, you won't really know how to respond until you clarify what he means by "having Jesus in your heart."

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[MichaelFilo]

Man... . your like my hero, all you got to do is wear your underwear on the outside....




Thank you,

God bless,

Mikey

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 13 2004, 07:14 PM'] Man... . your like my hero, all you got to do is wear your underwear on the outside.... [/quote]
hehe, i'll get right on that:

[img]http://www.mockspatchcock.com/section_04/Underwear12.jpg[/img]

[MichaelFilo]

He repented his position...

He said we believe Jesus died for our sins, and that we are saved, and I was like, not per se the way you stated it... he goes but we have the same basic tenents...

how do I prove the importance of discerning the right doctrine, I could use a logical arguement, but any off the top of your head scripture would be nice.

Thank you and God bless,

Mikey

[Theoketos]

Galations some where about not listening to a second Gospel

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 14 2004, 08:57 PM'] how do I prove the importance of discerning the right doctrine, I could use a logical arguement, but any off the top of your head scripture would be nice. [/quote]
how about scripture AND the early church fathers?

from the NewAdvent entry on [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11330a.htm"][b]Orthodoxy[/b][/url]:[list]
[*]Orthodoxy (orthodoxeia) signifies right belief or purity of faith. Right belief is not merely subjective, as resting on personal knowledge and convictions, but is in accordance with the teaching and direction of an absolute extrinsic authority. This authority is the Church founded by Christ, and guided by the Holy Ghost. He, therefore, is orthodox, whose faith coincides with the teachings of the Catholic Church. As divine revelation forms the deposit of faith entrusted to the Church for man's salvation, it also, with the truths clearly deduced from it, forms the object and content of orthodoxy.

Although the term orthodox or orthodoxy does not occur in the Scriptures, its meaning is repeatedly insisted on. Thus Christ proclaims the necessity of faith unto salvation ([b]Mark, xvi, 16[/b]). St. Paul, emphasizing the same injunction in terms more specific, teaches "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" ([b]Eph., iv, 5, 6[/b]). Again, when directing Titus in his ministerial labours, he admonishes him to speak in accord with "sound doctrine" ([b]Tit., ii, 1[/b]). And not only does St. Paul lay stress on the soundness of the doctrine to be preached, but he also directs attention to the form in which it must be delivered: "Hold the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me in faith" ([b]II Tim., i, 13[/b]).

Consistent with the teachings and method of Christ and the Apostles, the Fathers point out the necessity of preserving pure and undefiled the deposit of revelation. "Neither in the confusion of paganism", says [b]St. Augustine[/b], "nor in the defilement of heresy, nor in the lethargy of schism, nor yet in blindness of Judaism is religion to be sought; but among those alone who are called Catholic Christians, or the orthodox, that is, the custodians of sound doctrine and followers of right teaching" (De Vera Relig., cap. v). [b]Fulgentius[/b] writes: "I rejoice that with no taint of perfidy you are solicitous for the true faith, without which no conversion is of any avail, nor can at all exist" (De Vera Fide ad Petrum, Proleg).

The Church, likewise, in its zeal for purity of faith and teaching, has rigorously adhered to the example set by the Apostles and Early Fathers. This is manifest in its whole history, but especially in such champions of the faith as [b]Athansius[/b], in councils, condemnations of heresy, and its definitions of revealed truth. That orthodox faith is requisite for salvation is a defined doctrine of the Church. "Whosoever wishes to be saved", declares the [b]Athanasian Creed[/b], "must first of all hold integral and inviolate the Catholic faith, without which he shall surely be eternally lost". Numerous councils and papal decisions have reiterated this dogma (cf. [b]Council of Florence[/b], Denz., 714; Prof. of Faith of [b]Pius IV[/b], Denz., 1000; condemnation of Indifferentism and Latitudinarianism in the Syll. of [b]Pius IX[/b], Denz., 1715, 1718; [b]Council of the Vatican[/b], "De Fide". can. vi, Denz., 1815, condemnation of the Modernistic position regarding the nature and origin of dogma, Encyc. "Pascendi Dominici Gregis", 1907, Denz., 2079). While truth must be intolerant of error ([b]II Cor., vi, 14, 15[/b]), the Church does not deny the possibility of salvation of those earnest and sincere persons outside her fold who live and die in invincible ignorance of the true faith (cf. Council of the Vatican, Sess. III, cp. iii, Denz., 1794; S Aug., Ep.xliii ad Galerium). (See CHURCH; FAITH; PROTESTANT CONFESSIONS OF FAITH; HERESY; INDIFFERENTISM.)
[/list]
i hope this helps........pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited September 15, 2004 by phatcatholic

[StColette]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 13 2004, 07:14 PM'] Man... . your like my hero, all you got to do is wear your underwear on the outside....
[/quote]
ROFL !!

Phat does rock doesn't he ? lol

[MichaelFilo]

Mucho gracias senor super hero.

God bless,

Mikey