noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 (edited) See? Catholics believe in works apparently. The problem I see is they put the onus upon man, where God has made the promise. God's spirit, or the HOLY SPIRIT, sustains us. That's why with all the threats of grave sin and the like, only around 33% of catholics actually attend weekly mass. (source: American Catholics: Gender, Generation and commitment) Edited November 15, 2004 by noncatholicname Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:36 PM'] See? Catholics believe in works apparently. [/quote] See? You didn't read my post apparently. You are taking a causal relationship (i.e. faith causes works) and implying that Catholics believe that the effect saves us when we don't teach that, but we teach rather than the cause saves us, while also manifesting itself ("faith acting through love") in works, and that if works don't come out of it, then there cannot be faith, because faith would cause works. It is a logically valid position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 15 2004, 04:40 PM'] See? You didn't read my post apparently. You are taking a causal relationship (i.e. faith causes works) and implying that Catholics believe that the effect saves us when we don't teach that, but we teach rather than the cause saves us, while also manifesting itself ("faith acting through love") in works, and that if works don't come out of it, then there cannot be faith, because faith would cause works. It is a logically valid position. [/quote] I clicked enter on my post before, I edited it, but I'll post it again. See? Catholics believe in works apparently. The problem I see is they put the onus upon man, where God has made the promise. God's spirit, or the HOLY SPIRIT, sustains us. That's why with all the threats of grave sin and the like, only around 33% of catholics actually attend weekly mass. (source: American Catholics: Gender, Generation and commitment) Strangely enough, that's not what your superiors would say. They would say the onus is on you to do the work, with the HOLY SPIRIT's help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 15 2004, 04:40 PM'] See? You didn't read my post apparently. You are taking a causal relationship (i.e. faith causes works) and implying that Catholics believe that the effect saves us when we don't teach that, but we teach rather than the cause saves us, while also manifesting itself ("faith acting through love") in works, and that if works don't come out of it, then there cannot be faith, because faith would cause works. It is a logically valid position. [/quote] So it's faith plus a particular set of works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 who are you to tell us what Catholics believe? what is that source now? ooo only 33% of people that claim to be Catholic in America attend mass? wow, there's a lot of posers out there. who knows what the poll asked... it very well could have asked do you attend mass every sunday? and they remember a couple sundays in the year they were sick or didn't get a chance (it's not a sin if you're not doing it maliciously) and said no... there's all sorts of explanations. i don't put any stock in that percentage for a second! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote]"faith acting through love"[/quote] How about 'faith acting through love'? That I can agree on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 works keep faith alive. faith saves. without works, there is no faith. without faith, works are pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:47 PM'] I clicked enter on my post before, I edited it, but I'll post it again. See? Catholics believe in works apparently. The problem I see is they put the onus upon man, where God has made the promise. God's spirit, or the HOLY SPIRIT, sustains us. That's why with all the threats of grave sin and the like, only around 33% of catholics actually attend weekly mass. (source: American Catholics: Gender, Generation and commitment) Strangely enough, that's not what your superiors would say. They would say the onus is on you to do the work, with the HOLY SPIRIT's help. [/quote] No, rather, the onus is on us to accept the Holy Spirit and His promptings. The Holy Spirit compels us to good works by faith. If we do not go along with it, then we are rejecting the Holy Spirit. That's sin. And the reason only so many Catholics go to weekly Mass is largely because many are uneducated and don't realize what a great and wonderful thing Mass is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:51 PM'] How about 'faith acting through love'? That I can agree on. [/quote] Faith acting through love means good works. Works and acts are the same things. "Faith acting through love" is the core of the Catholic theology on Faith and Works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 (edited) Actually, I meant "love acting through faith". That I can agree on. Edited November 15, 2004 by noncatholicname Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 05:48 PM'] So it's faith plus a particular set of works? [/quote] No, it's faith. If there are no good works, then there really isn't faith and never was. The good works are a sign of faith. They are not the cause of salvation, but rather they are a definitive sign that we really have faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [url="http://www.usatoday.com/life/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/life/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm[/url] [url="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_4_64/ai_112357738"]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...64/ai_112357738[/url] Book review on the book American Catholics: Gender, Generation, and Commitment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 [quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 15 2004, 04:56 PM'] No, it's faith. If there are no good works, then there really isn't faith and never was. The good works are a sign of faith. They are not the cause of salvation, but rather they are a definitive sign that we really have faith. [/quote] When did the Catholic Church start teaching this? Did they suddenly agree with the westminster confession recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 The percentage of Catholics who say they attend Mass [b]every week[/b] is steadily declining. this includes, i'm sure, many who miss mass every once in a while and thus didn't answer EVERY WEEK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 15, 2004 Share Posted November 15, 2004 ncn, ALWAYS been taught. ALWAYS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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