Reformists

[MichaelFilo]

Many times during AP Euro history, I find it disturbing to realize how often reformists claim (esp. Luther) who's their actions were oxymornic to their beliefs.

The first one I noticed, the Church holds the doctrine of men, and the doctrines weren't of God. The doctrines of all the reformists were beliefs of men... made up by them. This is a quick flaw in their thinking.

They screamed scripture is our authority, but even scripture suggests to stick to what your teachers have taught you.

The reformists claimed in Faith alone as being salvic, however, he rejected Trans. (can't spell it) which is the greatest sign of Christian faith.

Luther often time criticized the Church for being political, but Luther's movement was a political movmeent in that whenever Luther's doctrines didn't stand up at the debate table, he'd turn to the error of the people of the Church.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but this list seems to be about right to me.

God bless,

Mikey

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 10 2004, 11:41 PM'] Many times during AP Euro history, I find it disturbing to realize how often reformists claim (esp. Luther) who's their actions were oxymornic to their beliefs.

The first one I noticed, the Church holds the doctrine of men, and the doctrines weren't of God. The doctrines of all the reformists were beliefs of men... made up by them. This is a quick flaw in their thinking.

They screamed scripture is our authority, but even scripture suggests to stick to what your teachers have taught you.

The reformists claimed in Faith alone as being salvic, however, he rejected Trans. (can't spell it) which is the greatest sign of Christian faith.

Luther often time criticized the Church for being political, but Luther's movement was a political movmeent in that whenever Luther's doctrines didn't stand up at the debate table, he'd turn to the error of the people of the Church.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but this list seems to be about right to me.

God bless,

Mikey [/quote]
Exactly... no non-Catholic can legitimately defend or "prove" his belief, so he tries to point out errors in PEOPLE in the Church (know as ad hominem attacks--that is, to the person). Luther is a prime example, and the blatant contradiction is, in my opinion, best seen in him.

To be trying to argue with a protestant is like trying to tell a student that 2 + 2 is 4, not 3; however, the student refuses to believe it, for some strange reason. To me, truthfully, 2 + 2 = 3 makes more sense than protestantism. It is funny: you can disprove Bible alone 101 ways, but they refuse to accept that it is disproved. They stick to the moto: "whatever I believe now is correct, so I'm just going to twist everything to fit this mold I've created". Why do they do that? Because they believe as they were taught. They contradict themselves over and over again, especially there, which is where they try to say that we are wrong the most (following what someone teaches us ["man"] rather than the Bible [their idol]).

[Broccolifish]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Sep 10 2004, 11:41 PM'] Many times during AP Euro history, I find it disturbing to realize how often reformists claim (esp. Luther) who's their actions were oxymornic to their beliefs.

The first one I noticed, the Church holds the doctrine of men, and the doctrines weren't of God. The doctrines of all the reformists were beliefs of men... made up by them. This is a quick flaw in their thinking.

They screamed scripture is our authority, but even scripture suggests to stick to what your teachers have taught you.

The reformists claimed in Faith alone as being salvic, however, he rejected Trans. (can't spell it) which is the greatest sign of Christian faith.

Luther often time criticized the Church for being political, but Luther's movement was a political movmeent in that whenever Luther's doctrines didn't stand up at the debate table, he'd turn to the error of the people of the Church.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but this list seems to be about right to me.

God bless,

Mikey [/quote]
Nothing you said here makes any sense unless you [i]presuppose[/i] Roman Catholic theology. Take Luther on Luther's terms, and all is made clear.

[Guest Aluigi]

no i see no presuppositions. what Luther criticized the Catholic Church for supposedly doing, he himself did.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Oct 30 2004, 12:02 PM'] no i see no presuppositions. what Luther criticized the Catholic Church for supposedly doing, he himself did. [/quote]
Such as?

I understood what Aaron said. Take Luther on his terms, with his understanding of the Word (i.e. if you deny justification by works, and affirm justification by faith) then you've automatically arrived at Faith Alone.

[Archangel]

I wonder how Luther understood James 2:24 ("See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone")?

[Brother Adam]

He understood it was dangerous enough to his new thinking that it required tearing the entire Epistle out of the Bible claiming to his followers it was "an epistle of straw"

[Brother Adam]

ICTHUS,

You know Catholics don't believe in works salvation.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 14 2004, 09:04 AM'] ICTHUS,

You know Catholics don't believe in works salvation. [/quote]
Sure they do. Don't you know it's a mortal sin to miss mass? And confession? And Communion?

I've even been told it's a sin NOT to pray the rosary.

Are we justified by grace through faith because of Christ, or are we making brownie points with God?

[Quietfire]

[quote]Sure they do. Don't you know it's a mortal sin to miss mass? And confession? And Communion?

I've even been told it's a sin NOT to pray the rosary.

Are we justified by grace through faith because of Christ, or are we making brownie points with God?[/quote]

You've got ALOT to learn.
It is not a mortal sin to miss Mass. It may be venial but certainly not mortal. And venial only because you think youve got something more important to do than spending time with God. Can you think of anything more important than spending time with God?
What? Shopping, playing or watching football? Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaase.

It is not a sin to not pray the rosary.
But if you did, which you obviously dont, then you would understand what it means to find solace and peace in doing so.

Praying the rosary daily has become one of the reasons I look foward to getting out of bed everyday. Im alive, allow me to thank God for that. Because no one else had anything to do with it.

Pax. <><

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Nov 15 2004, 12:53 PM']
You've got ALOT to learn.
It is not a mortal sin to miss Mass. It may be venial but certainly not mortal. And venial only because you think youve got something more important to do than spending time with God. Can you think of anything more important than spending time with God?
What? Shopping, playing or watching football? Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaase.

It is not a sin to not pray the rosary.
But if you did, which you obviously dont, then you would understand what it means to find solace and peace in doing so.

Praying the rosary daily has become one of the reasons I look foward to getting out of bed everyday. Im alive, allow me to thank God for that. Because no one else had anything to do with it.

Pax. <>< [/quote]
The church apparently has a lot to teach then.

[quote]2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.[/quote]

[Quietfire]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 15 2004, 01:44 PM'] The church apparently has a lot to teach then.

[/quote]
Yes, but do you know what specifically those days of obligation are?


Or is six or so times a year too much for you?






Pax.

Edited November 15, 2004 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

See, this is where it could get uncharitable.

I wont go there.


Yes, the Church would like all to attend Mass on a regular basis.

There are Holy days of obligation, and that is what I am referring to.
You presume its every Sunday and again, yes the Church would prefer that. But the Church in her wisdom knows that this may be impossible for everyone for reasons health, family, work and the like.

Some of us are required to work on Sundays.
Some of us have very demanding family issues.
Some of us may be in the hospital or in a situation where it is physically impossible to attend Mass.

The Holy days of obligation are as follows:
January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God;
Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter, the solemnity of the Ascension;
August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary;
November 1, the solemnity of All Saints;
December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception;
December 25, the solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.


But if you willingly skip Mass on these days cause you cant be bothered well.....what do you expect?


Pax.

[noncatholicname]

So it's about works. Show up on these days or your out.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Nov 15 2004, 01:53 PM'] You've got ALOT to learn.
It is not a mortal sin to miss Mass.  It may be venial but certainly not mortal.  And venial only because you think youve got something more important to do than spending time with God.  Can you think of anything more important than spending time with God?
What? Shopping, playing or watching football?  Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaase. [/quote]
Actually, if we are talking about skipping a Sunday Mass, that is grave matter and is a mortal sin, given the full knowledge of the mind and the full consent of the will. Attending Mass on Sundays and Holy Days is an obligation of the faith.

[quote]The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season.224 But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily. -CCC 1389

The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day." -CCC 2180[/quote]

The Precepts of the Church include this and the response to the attacks noncatholicname made about Confession and Communion as well:

[quote]The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:

The first precept ("You shall attend Mass on Sundays and on holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor") requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principle liturgical feasts honoring the mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.

The second precept ("You shall confess your sins at least once a year.") ensures preparation for the Eucharist by the reception of the sacrament of reconciliation, which continues Baptism's work of conversion and forgiveness.

The third precept ("You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season") guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord's Body and Blood in connection with the Paschal feasts, the origin and center of the Christian liturgy.

The fourth precept ("You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church") ensures the times of ascesis and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts and help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart.

The fifth precept ("You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church") means that the faithful are obliged to assist with the material needs of the Church, each according to his own ability.

The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his abilities.  -CCC 2041-2043[/quote]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=392832&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=missing+Mass&pgnu=1&groupnum=0"]EWTN on Missing Sunday Obligations[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=369441&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=missing+Mass&pgnu=1&groupnum=0"]The Holy Father on the Sunday Obligation and Grave Sin[/url]

As for noncatholicname, I think that the following article sums up an important point quite well: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EARNSAL.TXT"]Fr. Most on Salvation and Works[/url]

Faith saves us, yes, but a person who truly has faith will be compelled to do good works. Therefore, a person who doesn't do good works can't have faith, because if they did, they would do good works. A person who sins, on the other hand, by neglecting to live by his faith, does forfeit his inheritance with God, because "the wages of sin is death."