On Sainthood

[MichaelFilo]

Please note, these ideas would not cross my mind had the very bases of them not been mentioned, that we can only be sure a Saint is in Heaven at the point of their cannonization.


It has been constantly taught that all the saints reside in Heaven. However, many people take for granted that they are in Heaven from the time of their death. This cannot be consistent with logic, that the saints were people, and people do sin. To suggest that the saints all died without venial sins on their soul would be a mistake. While no one can definitivly say if a saint has sinned, or when, it would logically be understandable that the saints (non-martyrs) didn't die with a totally clean soul. We all know of the many "greats" amongsts the saints, those who were the holiest of holy people, and seemed heaven destined, and couldn't of possibly been expected to go anywhere but Heaven upon death (although we can't be sure, it would seems so). However, there were MANY saints who's names are not famaliar within most of the Church's faithful. For instance, the parent's of the greatest of all saints, Mary, were cannonized. Now, it would be very logical that their sins weren't totally removed, mostly because they lived pre-33 AD.

Now, using them as an example, one may look into the subject a little. Since it is very likely they had to go to purgatory (they didn't have spiritual grace, so that sanctification would of been impossible on Earth, as far as my knowledge goes, and God works in wonderous ways beyond human comprehension), then they weren't directly placed in Heaven until a while after their death, with the latest being the point of their cannonization.

Why does this matter? No real reason, speculative theology is kinda fun.

God bless,

Mikey

[Cam42]

Mikey,

[quote]To suggest that the saints all died without venial sins on their soul would be a mistake.[/quote]

Actually, we can say that the saints died without sin on their soul. That is how we know that they are in heaven. The Church teaches as such. [i]By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.[/i] (CCC 828)

[i]"The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven," at the time of Christ's glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world's persecutions and God's consolations." Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king." The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, 'from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,' . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father's presence."[/i] (CCC 769)

What is the significance of this? That only those who are perfect can enter into heaven. While a saint was most certainly a sinner....In order for him to be allowed into heaven, there must be no stain of sin at the time of death....for heaven is perfection. Sin is not.

[i]The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."[/i] (CCC 956)

This speaks to the level of holiness....if they are that holy, they are not stained with sin.

[i]Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is"'....[/i] (CCC 954)

This states that there are those who are sinless, in heaven and those who are not, yet still being purified.

These are great questions and very thought provoking, Mikey....Think about these statements....tell me what do you think?

Cam42

[Guest JeffCR07]

I will be the first to admit that I know nothing of the actual theology behind the topic, and so the following is purely speculative:

It seems to me that Mikey may be right in saying that some saints did not go directly to heaven. Let us take the issue of Anne, the mother of the Blessed Virgin. Now, for a moment, let us imagine that she has died without any venial sin on her soul, but Christ has not yet been crucified. One must agree that one of two possibilities exists. First, the possibility that Anne is taken directly to Heaven through the Grace of God, and that this Grace is only bestowed upon her [i]in anticipation of[/i] the merits won by Christ on the cross (for God works outside of Time). If one does not accept this, then one must assert that Anne had to "wait" for Christ's death and ressurection before she entered Heaven. If this is the case, then one must admit that not all Saints enter Heaven immediately upon death.

If this position is thus held, I do not see it causing much of a problem, as long as one maintains that at the moment of the Saint's cannonization, there is no possibility whatsoever that the Saint is anywhere but in Heaven.

I'm not sure what I think of the matter, though I happen to lean againts the above and think that the Saints do indeed go straight to Heaven. I think this is true because in order to become a Saint, verified miracles must be attributed to the Saint, and (unless someone corrects me) it seems fitting for miracles to be done by those already in Heaven moreso than by those anxiously awaiting heaven while in Purgatory.

However, it would not be inconceivable to imagine the Church Suffering offering miraculous aid to the Church Militant...

wonderful questions, Michael

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[MichaelFilo]

I think I need to address something before going on.

I recognize that there is no saint [b][i]at the time of cannonization[/i][/b] that is not in heaven. They cannot intercede for us while in purgatory, on the contrary, we intercede for them by praying, so logically no posthumus(incorrect spelling, anyone who is willing to fix it go ahead) miracles can be done. It is only after they have entered heaven that their intercession and miracles can actually occur. I think that is why there is a requirement for a miracle after death, so that we can sure that they have reached their heavenly abode.

My point is, that it is possible for a saint to go to purgatory prior to going to Heaven. The only reason I bring this up is because I have always taken it for granted that saints go directly to heaven at the time of their death.

Now, as far as the quotes go, they all seem to say that we know they are in heaven at the time of cannonization, and no sooner. Was I supposed to get something else out of it?

I am sorry if this was a waste of time for anyone, I didn't intend it to be.

God bless,

Mikey

[XIX]

Wasn't Joseph in limbo until Jesus died?

Semi-on topic: What distinguishes Sanctification from Beatification?

[Aloysius]

before Jesus, the best one could get when they died was the bosom of Abraham

[Dave]

Actually, while there's no official teaching about this, it's commonly believed that we CAN ask the souls in purgatory to pray for us just like we pray for them.

[Aloysius]

they can pray for everyone but themselves, if i'm not mistaken

[MichaelFilo]

I was taught that it is good to pray for them here on Earth, so that when they enter heaven they may intercede for us. I can't imagine someone who needs our prayer commiting posthumus(again spelling?) miracles, if their soul is still weighted down by uncleansed sin.

God bless,

Mikey

[Guest JeffCR07]

Aloyisius, unless I am mistaken, the concept of the Bosom of Abraham as a seperate place is still merely speculative theology, for the Early Church Fathers were not clear on the issue, nor has the Magisterium declared or taught officially one way or another. Thus, I would posit that such a statement may be a validly defendable opinion, but is not an authoritative certainty.

MichaelFilo, I believe you are correct, though is someone can provide Magisterial Teaching to the contrary, then i would gladly recant such an assertion.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[MichaelFilo]

As would I. Many more people have had formal educations which I lack, so I can be errenously belieivng something to be true. I don't believe ther eis anything on the specific topic, but I, like Jeff, will recant if there is anything to the contrary.

God bless,

Mikey