Lifeteen

[jasJis]

well, with all due respect to your Bishop, there are many bishops in this country and elsewhere in the world who feel quite differently.

BINGO!

With all due respect to the Bishop of your Diocese!

I don't sit in judgement of my Bishop. I respect his judgement, and I respect the judgement of the neighboring Bishop who does not allow standing in the Sancturary.

The have differing opinions. They are both Bishops and Princes of the Holy Catholic Church that is graced with the eternal abiding of the Holy Spirit. They also don't see it as changing the rubrics, but making adaptations to foster the Spirit if the Sacrifice and Celebration of the Mass.

With all due respect, I may question, but it is not respectful to condemn when it is defended with a reasonable explaination.

To me it's less grave to allow teens standing in the Sanctuary as part of a catachesis program for teens that I've seen generate tremendous fruits in piety, devoutness, understanding, and enthusiasm in the kids. The LifeTeen Mass, as the Mass is a big part of LifeTeen. There is also the weekly Catechesis, Retreats, service projects, volenteering, peer counseling, peer teaching, community prayer, Eucharistic Adoration, participation in the Sacraments, etc., etc., etc.

With all due respect for the Bishops of both Diocese, the congregation of the Diocese owes outward respect and obedience. I still personally question the Altar Gather, but out of respect for my Bishop (who I questioned), I don't undermine his authority behind his back. I do support my parish's LifeTeen program and is one of the volunteers. We have a fantastic program with 200+ kids who belong and participate of their own volition, and an additional 250++ in the 2 year confirmation program with 3 or 4 dozen adult volunteers.

mp15 gave a sharp picture of some people's priorites when decideing to support LifeTeen. I kept an open mind and volunteered and participated despite some mis-givings. I now support it for the graces that are provided in the program.

If we get a new Bishop next week, and he decides to disallow the Altar Gather. Then in obedience to him, that's the way it is to be. If the Bishop decides to disallow the entire LifeTeen program, then that's the way it is to be. If the Bishop decides to leave it up to the parish priest, and he doesn't want it in his parish, that's the way it is to be.

Frankly, I'm tired of the culture of discension. Part of Christ's teachings of giving to Ceasar what is Ceasar's is to obey the people who are in position of Authority, both in the Church, and in Civil Government. My role and authority is much samller and different than a Pastor or Bishop. But my duty is the same. To do my part to serve the Lord and help make my parish a loving and loyal part of the Catholic Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

Yes it is. But many people are in the unenviable position of choosing between loyalty to a particular parish and/or Bishop and loyalty to the Church.

Pray for them.

I am in a mostly orthodox diocese ( except the nuns). But if I ever have to choose my loyalty is to the Church first, and particular people or places second.

[dUSt]

I believe that to be loyal to the Church, one has to be loyal to their bishop. Until that bishop is reprimanded by Rome or removed from his position, he's the local authority--a succesor to Peter.

[jasJis]

I think Luther also said he was in the unenvialble position of choosing loyalty to the Church or loyalty to God.

Edited September 27, 2003 by jasJis

[ryanmeyersmusic]

CATECHISM:

1328: The inexhaustible richness of this sacrament is expressed in the different names we give it. Each name evokes certain aspects of it. It is called: Eucharist, because it is an action of thanksgiving to God. The Greek words eucharistein and eulogein recall the Jewish blessings that proclaim—especially during a meal—God's works: creation, redemption, and sanctification. 1329: The Lord's Supper, because of its connection with the supper which the Lord took with his disciples on the eve of his Passion and because it anticipates the wedding feast of the Lamb in the heavenly Jerusalem. The Breaking of Bread, because Jesus used this rite, part of a Jewish meal, when as master of the table he blessed and distributed the bread, above all at the Last Supper. It is by this action that his disciples will recognize him after his Resurrection, and it is this expression that the first Christians will use to designate their Eucharistic assemblies; by doing so they signified that all who eat the one broken bread, Christ, enter into communion with him and form but one body in him. The Eucharistic assembly (synaxis), because the Eucharist is celebrated amid the assembly of the faithful, the visible expression of the Church. 1330: The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used, since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant. The Holy and Divine Liturgy, because the Church's whole liturgy finds its center and most intense expression in the celebration of this sacrament; in the same sense we also call its celebration the Sacred Mysteries. We speak of the Most Blessed Sacrament because it is the Sacrament of sacraments. The Eucharistic species reserved in the tabernacle are designated by this same name. 1331: Holy Communion, because by this sacrament we unite ourselves to Christ, who makes us sharers in his Body and Blood to form a single body. We also call it: the holy things (ta hagia; sancta)—the first meaning of the phrase "communion of saints" in the Apostles' Creed—the bread of angels, bread from heaven, medicine of immortality,153 viaticum. . . . 1332: Holy Mass (Missa), because the liturgy in which the mystery of salvation is accomplished concludes with the sending forth (missio) of the faithful, so that they may fulfill God's will in their daily lives.

we celebrate the sacrifice of Christ in the knowledge of His resurrection. This is in fact something to be joyful about. The Mass is not meant to dwell in the death of Christ rather to commemorate it in light of His glorious ressurection.

[ryanmeyersmusic]

the title before 1330 is "The memorial of the Lord's Passion and Resurrection"

[nippy316]

bump

[merrymexican]

many many opinions on this issue. Some of you have very valid points.

1st... someone... I think it was mp15 said that this mass should be no different... however the USCCB does allow for 'children's' masses... in which cases some liberties are available. a 'teen' mass would qualify for this and as such there is allowance for certain things... specifically calling the youth around the altar.

Why should we do something special for the teens? Well because the primary Catechesis needs to come when a Catholic is young. This is a time of formation... as a former LIFE TEEN Youth Minister... I believe that bringing the teens around the altar was not just a time to make them feel special... but it was a primarily Catehetical moment, a time when the youth a called to come closer so they can see even more what is going on... which btw... is also the feeling of Fr. Moroney, the head of the office of Liturgy at the USCCB.

On the issue of music... there is nothing wrong w/doing music that is culturally appropriate... I'm sure many of you would be angered if I were to say that people in Nigeria shouldn't do the music that they do for masses... what if I said their music was innappropriate and irreverant of Christ, etc. etc. I would be called a racist a jerk a bastard... many other things. But when a Priest/Music Minister/or Youth Minister wants to do something culturally appropriate for their flock (i.e. use more up to date music) they are suddenly going against the GIRM and yada yada. The Church affirms the use of culturally appropriate music and practices at Mass as long as they follow the rubrics.

We are a culture btw. Just so you know.

[geetarplayer]

I don't think music and "shaking tambourines" should be a major factor in this debate. But just for the record, LifeTeen Masses aren't the only Masses with up-beat music and "tambourines". (By the way, the 12:15 non-LifeTeen Mass I play my guitar at has more tambourine action than the LifeTeen Mass.) More often than not, the only up-tempo music that is played at a LifeTeen Mass are the Opening and Closing Songs, which is no different from a non-LifeTeen Mass. The rest of the songs are typically praise and worship songs, slow and prayerful. Anyway, why shouldn't happy music and dancing be allowed in the Lord's presence? The Mass is a celebration of God's triumph over evil, Jesus' triumph over death!

-Mark

[Anna]

1st... someone... I think it was mp15 said that this mass should be no different... however the USCCB does allow for 'children's' masses... in which cases some liberties are available. a 'teen' mass would qualify for this and as such there is allowance for certain things... specifically calling the youth around the altar.

The USCCB does allow for children's Masses, but I don't think Rome has spoken on them one way or another.

There have been situations where American bishops okay things that are later corrected by Rome, haven't there?

If Rome suggested that such Masses are inappropriate, do you think they would stop?

Also a Teen Mass is not the same as a Children's Mass.

Teens are not "children."

Certain things that are allowed...such as the youth around the altar? If this is allowed by the Church's authority, please show us all where we may read it.

Otherwise, it's just your opinion, which holds no authority whatsoever.

Why should we do something special for the teens? Well because the primary Catechesis needs to come when a Catholic is young. This is a time of formation...

And, attending a Mass as a young adult, observed with reverence and correct rubrics wouldn't be good formation?

as a former LIFE TEEN Youth Minister... I believe that bringing the teens around the altar was not just a time to make them feel special... but it was a primarily  Catehetical moment, a time when the youth a called to come closer so they can see even more what is going on... which btw... is also the feeling of Fr. Moroney, the head of the office of Liturgy at the USCCB.

These youth could volunteer as servers if they just wanted to get close to see better! Then, they wouldn't be blocking us old folks' view!!!

On the issue of music... there is nothing wrong w/doing music that is culturally appropriate...

True, culturally, as an entire nation or race of people which spans many generations.

I'm sure many of you would be angered if I were to say that people in Nigeria shouldn't do the music that they do for masses... what if I said their music was innappropriate and irreverant of Christ, etc. etc. I would be called a racist a jerk ... many other things. But when a Priest/Music Minister/or Youth Minister wants to do something culturally appropriate for their flock (i.e. use more up to date music) they are suddenly going against the GIRM and yada yada.

On the one hand, you are describing a culture which across the board celebrates with a type of music particular to their nation and ethnic background, and which has done so for many, many generations. This cultural "identity" is permitted in the Mass, because it is a reflection of ALL the people of that particular ethnic background. You can't compare American teenager sub-culture to entire nations of mixed age citizenry.

The Church affirms the use of culturally appropriate music and practices at Mass as long as they follow the rubrics.

Again, please direct us to your source, such as an encyclical, Vatican document, Catechism quote?

We are a culture btw. Just so you know.

To what "we" are you referring?

Americans?

No. There is no particular cultural music which reflects American culture as a whole.

There's blues, jazz, rock, hip hop, country and western, rap, etc. and they all represent different little sub-groups and age groups of our culture, but they exclude a wide range of other Americans. So there is NO form of music which can be identified as reflective of all American culture.

Teenagers are not a culture unto themselves.

Pax Christi. <><

[vianney]

If Rome suggested that such Masses are inappropriate, do you think they would stop?

Rome hasnt yet so dont assume what hasnt happened. The USCCB said it was ok.

And, attending a Mass as a young adult, observed with reverence and correct rubrics wouldn't be good formation?

Have you ever been to a lifeteen mass? They are some of the most reverant masses I have ever been to.

As merrymexican jsut pionted out it most lifeteen masses do follow the correct rubrics.

[vianney]

sorry i typed the passage twice

[notbilln]

Even EMEs are not permitted in the sanctuary before the celebrants receive Holy Communion.  To have anyone else, I believe an indult is required from Rome.  I don't believe Life Teen has one.

Yeah, actually it does. The Pope gave his blessing to the lifeteen program and is on its way to becoming a lay apposolite.

[notbilln]

mp,

I don't really agree with that article, as it focuses on the music. Music is very cultural and "tamborines" to you might mean irreverence or disrespect, but to someone else it might mean a deep, heartfelt devotion to Christ and his True Presence. My issue is not with the music.

I think this is particularly unfair: "When the focus is on feeling good and having a good time we forget that Jesus is getting ready to shed His blood and our sins are what put Him on the cross."

I don't think the focus of a Lifeteen mass is to "have a good time and feel good", and I doubt you'd find anyone in Lifeteen that'll tell you that's the focus.

My only concern is Lifeteen masses not following the rubrics of mass.

Sorry to post two in a row, but it happens. Right now Life teen is operating in a loop hole that appears in vatican II. Essentially it allows the mass to be carried out with influences from each culture. LIfe teen firmly belives that Teenagers are a culture unto themselves( personally I think they are from another planet). The Problem as I see it is that every lifeteen mass at every parish is different. That is a problem in my eyes. I do like that standing on the altar has become a right of passage for youth in our parish. It does help them to focus on the sanctaty of the euchrist. Lifeteen has been comisoned by the American council of bishops to come up with a litergy for teenagers. I think once that document comes out many of dUst's concerns will be addressed. I agree with several of them myself. There is another document coming out of rome soon that may superseed the americans ( obviously). It is rumored to explicitly spell out what is and is not permited during a mass. It may repeal severel aspects of vatican II. It may require the instalation of communion pews, and Latin masses ( one parish mass a week I think) as well as having the priest stand with his back to the altar. Lifeteen would obviously abide by whatever Rome tells it to. I am concerned that this may cause a loss of the so called "cafeteria catholics" those standing on the edge. I'm not sure whether it is better to attend mass with a lukewarm heart, or not attend at all (stupid brain, why won't you think!). well thats all that I can say right now.

[JP2Iloveyou]

Yeah, actually it does. The Pope gave his blessing to the lifeteen program and is on its way to becoming a lay apposolite.

An indult is not the same as a blessing. The Holy Father may have given the program his blessing, but that does not in any way apply they have the liberty to interpret the rubrics as they see fit. The GIRM is quite clear on this. I don't understand why this is causing such a debate. I just read through the entire section of the General Instructions on this and it says nothing about having people come into the sanctuary.

Quoting from EWTN.com, "The Code of Canon Law, repeating the legislation of the Second Vatican Council in the Constitution on the sacred Liturgy 22, states,

Canon 838, 1. The supervision of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church which resides in the Apostolic See and, in accord with the law, the diocesan bishop.

The liturgical law does not give the bishop authority to override the general law, which does not allow this practice. In fact, only the ministers are to be in the sanctuary (including laity serving as lectors, servers, etc.), and they may not stand around the altar as if concelebrants.

295 The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands, the word of God is proclaimed, and the priest, deacon and other ministers exercise their offices. It should clearly be marked off from the body of the church either by being somewhat elevated or by its distinctive design and appointments. It should be large enough to allow for the proper celebration of the Eucharist which should be easily seen.

42 The gestures and posture of the priest, deacon and the ministers, as well as of the people should allow the whole celebration to shine with dignity and noble simplicity, demonstrating the full and true meaning of each of their diverse parts, while fostering the participation of all. Therefore, greater attention needs to be paid to what is laid down by liturgical law and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite, for the sake of the common spiritual good of the people of God rather than to personal inclination or arbitrary choice." (EWTN's emphasis)

Now, as for music. I am wholeheartedly supportive of p&w music in Mass, assuming it complies with liturgical law. The tempo of a music does not determine its reverence. As long as a song is theologicly accurate and in accord with the current liturgical season, I see no problem with it. I'm far from a liturgical expert, but that's just the way I've read the GIRM. Some p&w music is actually much more theologicly accurate than some "traditional" songs we might be used to, "Amazing Grace" for example.