Infant Water Baptism In Protestant Churches

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 7 2004, 11:06 AM'] The minister of Baptism does not need to be a Priest. Any person, (even female) can baptize validly. Even a non-Catholic, pagan, or atheist can do so validly IF HE DOES SO WITH THE INTENTION TO DO AS THE CHURCH DOES. I do not think that merely believing in Original Sin will suffice to fulfill this intention. They must intend to do AS THE CHURCH DOES. If you instruct a person who is non-Catholic to baptize you in a necessity (as I said above regarding even an atheist), and you tell him what he must intend to do, and he does intend it, whether or not he actually believes in Original Sin, you are still baptized, I believe. It is the same for Mass. Even if the Priest does not believe in the Real Presence, if he intends to change the bread and wine into the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ as the Church intends, it is valid, as far as I understand it. [/quote]
right, but this is only in matters of necessity or emergency. would these baptisms in protestant churches fall under this situation? it doesn't seem like they would.

also, protestant churches don't seem to have the full intentions of the Church when they baptize infants as she does. what if they intend to forgive original sin (as the Church does) but they do not intend to grant the child the gifts of the Holy Spirit? it just seems weird to me that a baptism would only achieve certain effects based on the intent of the minister, instead of all of the effects.

at the same time, we know that we can call "Christian" all those who have been baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. does this mean that some type of effect has taken place--an effect that was likewise achieved through our baptism--based on the formula alone?

ugh! i'm probably making this more difficult then it needs to be.....

[phatcatholic]

theoketos, ur quotes from the CCL helped, thanks!

[HartfordWhalers]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Sep 7 2004, 11:26 AM'] right, but this is only in matters of necessity or emergency. would these baptisms in protestant churches fall under this situation? it doesn't seem like they would.

also, protestant churches don't seem to have the full intentions of the Church when they baptize infants as she does. what if they intend to forgive original sin (as the Church does) but they do not intend to grant the child the gifts of the Holy Spirit? it just seems weird to me that a baptism would only achieve certain effects based on the intent of the minister, instead of all of the effects.

at the same time, we know that we can call "Christian" all those who have been baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. does this mean that some type of effect has taken place--an effect that was likewise achieved through our baptism--based on the formula alone?

ugh! i'm probably making this more difficult then it needs to be..... [/quote]
"at the same time, we know that we can call "Christian" all those who have been baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Yes, as long as they are Catholic. Christianity only exists in the Church. Outside of the Church, Christianity does not exist. Only heresy and damnation.

As far as Baptism of non-Catholics, I have read many quotes from the Church Fathers saying even if a person if baptized but he is not in the Church, the Baptism avails him nothing, and he is damned nonetheless.

Here is one example:

Fulgentius of Ruspe:
"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church." (AD 524, "The Rule of Faith")

EDIT: ** He does not mean you cannot or should not have a CONDITIONAL Baptism. All converts (except MAYBE from "orthodox") should have one, since the intention is impossible to know. At the beginning his purpose was to makes sure it was clear that no one can be baptized more than once. At this time, the formula and intention, etc. of Baptism were exactly the same as the Church, yet here he makes clear only in the Church is the effect of Baptism (salvation) reached. Outside the Church he cannot have salvation, only damnation.

Edited September 7, 2004 by HartfordWhalers

[HartfordWhalers]

"or of that of the baptizing minister."

That is a doubt with every protestant ecclesial community. Since they all believe different things depending upon their personal interpretation of the Bible, even if their community as a whole professes a certain belief, the specific "minister" could believe something completely different. I would not hesititate for a moment to conditionally baptize a protestant convert. A condition Baptism is not re-baptizing, so long as the person was already baptized, but if he was no, th Baptism takes place. Better safe than sorry always, especially considering the absolute necessity of Baptism for salvation.

[phatcatholic]

HartfordWhalers.............read these articles:

[b]Salvation Outside the Church[/b]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1203"]Ignorance: Invincible and Vincible[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/How_to_Become_a_Catholic.asp"]How to Become a Catholic[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=964"]Is There Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY2.TXT"]Leonard Freeney on "No Salvation Outside the Church"[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT"]Tragic Errors of Leonard Freeney[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"]No Salvation Outside the Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4084"]Salvation Outside the Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CHURCHSA.TXT"]Which Church Saves?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3447"]The Necessity of Being Catholic[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=674"]Is There Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4085"]Can Outsiders Be Insiders?[/url]
--[url="http://cuf.org/member/withoutchurch.pdf"]Without the Church There Is No Salvation[/url]
--[url="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/salvation.html"]Who Will Be Saved?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic-defense.com/no_salvation.htm"]No Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/SPIRCATH.htm#10"]The Church Necessary for Salvation[/url]
--[url="http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=67"]If "No Salvation Outside the Church" Is Infallible, How Can We Say Today that People Outside Can Be Saved?[/url]
--[url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/critic2.html"]"Mr. Critic" and Salvation Outside the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.cathworld.org/worlds/bible/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"]Against Feeneyism[/url]
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/debate9.htm"]The Unam Sanctam "Problem" Resolved by PhilVaz[/url]
--[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.5/coverstory.html"]Can Outsiders Be Insiders?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3517/nosalv.htm"]No Salvation Outside The Church?[/url]


w/ that, i'm closing this thread. i believe the original question has been answered. goldenchild, if you still have questions about this, start a new thread. HW, debating IS NOT ALLOWED in this board. if you wish to contend with what has been provided here, start a thread in the debate board.

pax christi,
phatcatholic