goldenchild17 Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Topic asks all. Does it? According to the Catholic Church, are those who are baptized by water in a Protestant Church cleansed from original sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Okay I had to make sure I had it correct before I answered. If a Protestant Church believes that the baptism washes away original sin and they must use water in the baptism. They must also baptize " In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 So it happens only if the church where it occurs believes that the sin is washed away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 yep, I checked with Micah, and he says the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 How about this... What are the definitions of baptism by desire and baptism by blood? Also, isn't faith required for baptism? Wouldn't this negate the infants? Or can their parents represent their faith? I'm trying to get all the Protestant questions out as they are being asked me. What are the biblical answers to these questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one´s blood for the faith of Christ. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water. Godfathers and godmothers are given in Baptism in order that they may promise, in the name of the child, what the child itself would promise if it had the use of reason. The obligation of a godfather and a godmother is to instruct the child in its religious duties, if the parents neglect to do so or die. Biblical bases: Infant Baptism Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults. Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature. Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception. Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism? Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism. Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God. Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism." Luke 18:15 - the people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This proves that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason. Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized." This is confirmed in the next verse. Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants. Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21. So baptism is for infants as well as adults. Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults. Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children. Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith. Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls. Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom. 1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults. Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism. Eph. 2:3- we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. 2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith. Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith. Matt. 8:5-13; Luke 6-10 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith. Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died. Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation. Edited September 7, 2004 by StColette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Okay, good thanks. I'm sure I'll be back with more Edited September 7, 2004 by goldenchild17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Irenaeus: For he came to save all by means of himself -- all, I say, who by him are born again to God -- infants, children, adolescents, young men, and old men. (Against Heresies II.22.4) Hippolytus: And they shall baptize the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family. And next they shall baptism the grown men; and last the women. (Apostolic Tradition 21.3-5) Origen: I take this occasion to discuss something which our brothers often inquire about. Infants are baptized for the remission of sins. Of what kinds? Or when did they sin? But since "No one is exempt from stain," one removes the stain by the mystery of baptism. For this reason infants are baptized. For "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." (Homily on Luke 14:5). [After quoting Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:4] These verses may be adduced when it is asked why, since the baptism of the church is given for the remission of sins, baptism according to the practice of the church is given even to infants; since indeed if there is in infants nothing which ought to pertain to forgiveness and mercy, the grace of baptism would be superfluous. (Homily on Leviticus 8:3). [After quoting Leviticus 12:8 and Psalm 51:5] For this also the church had a tradition from the apostles, to give baptism even to infants. For they to whom the secrets of the divine mysteries were given knew that there is in all persons the natural stains of sin which must be washed away by the water and the Spirit. On account of these stains the body itself is called the body of sin. (Commentary on Romans 5:9) Cyprian: In respect of the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man... Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision... we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins - that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another" (Letter 58 to Fidus). Augustine: For from the infant newly born to the old man bent with age, as there is none shut out from baptism, so there is none who in baptism does not die to sin. (Enchiridion; ch. 43) Polycarp (69-155), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant. This enabled him to say at his martyrdom. "Eighty and six years have I served the Lord Christ" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 9: 3). Justin Martyr (100 - 166) of the next generation states about the year 150, "Many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples since childhood, remain pure at the age of sixty or seventy years" (Apology 1: 15). Further, in his Dialog with Trypho the Jew, Justin Martyr states that Baptism is the circumcision of the New Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 7, 2004 Author Share Posted September 7, 2004 Ah, you caught the post before I edited it. I edited because I was going to try and find these on my own, not make you do all the work . Thanks so much. It's always so good to know that even if I can't understand one of our doctrines or explain it, that I can always go back to what the followers of Jesus believed, and their followers. This is so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 anytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 [quote name='StColette' date='Sep 7 2004, 01:31 AM'] Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water. [/quote] That isn't defined by the Church, however, and it seems to blatantly reject the Church's constant teaching of the necessity of Baptism of water, especially at Trent and Florence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 do you any documents that support the belief that infant baptism in protestant churches removes original sin? my first inclination was to say no, since they don't have valid Holy Orders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Sep 7 2004, 10:57 AM'] do you any documents that support the belief that infant baptism in protestant churches removes original sin? my first inclination was to say no, since they don't have valid Holy Orders [/quote] The minister of Baptism does not need to be a Priest. Any person, (even female) can baptize validly. Even a non-Catholic, pagan, or atheist can do so validly IF HE DOES SO WITH THE INTENTION TO DO AS THE CHURCH DOES. I do not think that merely believing in Original Sin will suffice to fulfill this intention. They must intend to do AS THE CHURCH DOES. If you instruct a person who is non-Catholic to baptize you in a necessity (as I said above regarding even an atheist), and you tell him what he must intend to do, and he does intend it, whether or not he actually believes in Original Sin, you are still baptized, I believe. It is the same for Mass. Even if the Priest does not believe in the Real Presence, if he intends to change the bread and wine into the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ as the Church intends, it is valid, as far as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Sep 7 2004, 10:57 AM'] do you any documents that support the belief that infant baptism in protestant churches removes original sin? my first inclination was to say no, since they don't have valid Holy Orders [/quote] [quote name='"Code of Canon Law"']CHAPTER II : THE MINISTER OF BAPTISM Can. 861 §1 The ordinary minister of baptism is a Bishop, a priest or a deacon, without prejudice to the provision of can. 530, n. 1. §2 If the ordinary minister is absent or impeded, a catechist or some other person deputed to this office by the local Ordinary, may lawfully confer baptism; indeed, in a case of necessity, any person who has the requisite intention may do so. Pastors of souls, especially parish priests, are to be diligent in ensuring that Christ's faithful are taught the correct way to baptize. Can. 862 Except in a case of necessity, it is unlawful for anyone without due permission to confer baptism outside his own territory, not even upon his own subjects. Can. 863 The baptism of adults, at least of those who have completed their fourteenth year, is to be referred to the Bishop, so that he himself may confer it if he judges this appropriate. [/quote] However CCL 869 also comment on the matter giving light to human ingnorence. [quote]Can. 869 §1 If there is doubt as to whether a person was baptized or whether a baptism was conferred validly, and after serious enquiry this doubt persists, the person is to be baptized conditionally. [b]§2 Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community are not to be baptized conditionally unless there is a serious reason for doubting the validity of their baptism, on the ground of the matter or the form of words used in the baptism, or of the intention of the adult being baptized or of that of the baptizing minister. [/b] §3 If in the cases mentioned in §1 and 2 a doubt remains about the conferring of the baptism or its validity, baptism is not to be conferred until the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person to be baptized, if that person is an adult. Moreover, the reasons for doubting the validity of the earlier baptism should be given to the person or, where an infant is concerned, to the parents. [/quote] Basically any one may baptize if there is proper matter and form, as long as they do it with the intetentions of the Church, ie to cleanse orginal sin and bring them into the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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