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Words For The Wise


Ziggamafu

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Five people in my life who are each so close to being Catholic...yet each in his or her own way is still so far away; merely because of one singularily held grudge or intellectual dilemma, which persists in holding him or her back.

1. A Senior Pastor of a highly successful church. Non-denominational under a Vineyard label. Near a Big Ten University campus and attracts all sorts of kids, teens, and young adults to church services of their own accord. His problem? Becoming Catholic would mean belonging to a Church that does not have that draw - the seeker sympathy and culture contemporaneousness that yields such a harvest in his church, now; especially among the college kids that would otherwise be going out to get drunk and laid.

2. A New Comer's Pastor of the same church. His problem? Transubstantiation. To him, the Aristotelian physics and metaphysics upon which our explanation of the process is based suggest both primitive and unscientific theories - theories that he contends have been long since disproved - and even Gnosticism, because we elevate the spiritual, metaphysical, [i]substance[/i] above the material, physical, [i]accidents[/i].

3. An Elder of a different church, who is heavily involved in the Charismatic movement and relies on his intimate and experiential connection with the Holy Spirit. He believes that since the Catholic Church does not exhibit either the growth and prosperity booms of Evangelical Protestantism or the Charismatic and joyfully experiential emphasis, it must by simple fact of observation be a dead church.

4. A woman who is non-denominational and sees division and argument being a part of the universal Body of Christ ever since the arguments between Peter and Paul, right on down through the millennia. Despite such differences, the real unity of the One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic Church comes only in the form of faith that only Christ can save and trust in the Tradition handed down through Scripture. Catholicism is grand, but just a part of the larger picture and God is never boxed up. And since Catholic churches are not culture-contemporary or dynamic, they don't appeal to her.

5. A college girl whose family might disown her if she became Catholic, so she is settling for the Episcopal Church, which though they are uncomfortable with, is nonetheless better than the whore of Babylon. She still feels drawn to the True Church, however. Especially after hearing Scott Hahn speak in person.

What style of love and apologetics might be appropriate for each of these people and their situations? What would you do? And what would you say?

Edited by Ziggamafu
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[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Sep 6 2004, 02:16 PM'] 1. A Senior Pastor of a highly successful church. Non-denominational under a Vineyard label. Near a Big Ten University campus and attracts all sorts of kids, teens, and young adults to church services of their own accord. His problem? Becoming Catholic would mean belonging to a Church that does not have that draw - the seeker sympathy and culture contemporaneousness that yields such a harvest in his church, now; especially among the college kids that would otherwise be going out to get drunk and laid. [/quote]
what would you rather have: the truth or a large audience? you hurt the flock if what you feed them is a lie, and you hurt yourself if you feed off the flock instead of on the Truth of Jesus Christ. plus, who says you can't bring these college kids with you? show them the fire you have for the Lord and the Truth that you have found in the Catholic Church. show them how excited you are to have made this new discovery. show them your love and passion for the Truth. they will follow you.

[quote]2. A New Comer's Pastor of the same church. His problem? Transubstantiation. To him, the Aristotelian physics and metaphysics upon which our explanation of the process is based suggest both primitive and unscientific theories - theories that he contends have been long since disproved - and even Gnosticism, because we elevate the spiritual, metaphysical, [i]substance[/i] above the material, physical, [i]accidents[/i].[/quote]
Aristotelian physics is primitive? why? b/c Aristotle lived so many years ago? well, so did Jesus Christ. so did Moses. so did God. are we to deny the principles they set forth b/c they are primitive? "primitive" need not mean "useless," especially when these ancient principles apply still today. are we to forsake the ancient truths handed on to us by the Church for some "new wave" or "postmodern" way of thinking?

as for the charge that transubstantiation is a Gnostic belief, this simply does not fit when you take an honest look at how Catholics view the material world in comparison to the Gnostics. It is my understanding that Gnosticism holds that not just the body, but the material world in general was made by an evil God. as such the material world should be repressed and rejected. nothing good can come from it. how could the Catholic Church be accused of holding such views when we hold fast--moreso than any other church--to the idea that God works through the material world to achieve our sanctification? the seven sacraments consist of the material imbued with the Spiritual. in the Eucharist, bread and wine become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. but, it doesn't stop there. the waters of baptism, the oil of confirmation, holy orders, and anointing of the sick, the person of the priest during confession, and the very bride and groom of marriage all constitute matter empowered by the Spirit to give us grace. this is an appreciation and a respect for the material world, not a rejection of it.

[quote]3. An Elder of a different church, who is heavily involved in the Charismatic movement and relies on his intimate and experiential connection with the Holy Spirit. He believes that since the Catholic Church does not exhibit either the growth and prosperity booms of Evangelical Protestantism or the Charismatic and joyfully experiential emphasis, it must by simple fact of observation be a dead church.[/quote]
basically what this amounts to is the belief that the presence of the Spirit depends on a certain type of music or a specific reaction by the congregation. if the pastor isn't ostentatious, the Spirit isn't there. if the songs aren't loud and lively, the Spirit isn't there. if the congregation isn't clapping or passing out, the Spirit isn't there. this puts the Spirit in a box, restricting Him to only one form of worship.

but, the accusation that a Mass isn't "Spirit-filled" basically boils down to ignorance of what is actually occuring in the mass. there is so much more beneath the surface, so much mystery actually beyond what we are able to fathom. every mass we celebrate occurs simultaneously both in heaven and on earth. the angels and saints sing and respond with us. this is the "marriage supper of the Lamb," this is the one sacrifice for all mankind, this is our Lord and Savior entering into us and filling us w/ his presence. it does not get more spiritual than that.

whenever i hear someone say this about the mass, i usually start by telling them how much i get out of it, how it brightens my day and changes my entire disposition, how it often brings me to tears, how i wouldn't miss it for the world. usually a personal story like this shows them the Spirit is indeed involved. if they still don't believe, i usually ask them to study more about the mass. once one understands what is reeeeally going on, it is impossible to claim that the Spirit is not involved.

[quote]4. A woman who is non-denominational and sees division and argument being a part of the universal Body of Christ ever since the arguments between Peter and Paul, right on down through the millennia. Despite such differences, the real unity of the One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic Church comes only in the form of faith that only Christ can save and trust in the Tradition handed down through Scripture. Catholicism is grand, but just a part of the larger picture and God is never boxed up. And since Catholic churches are not culture-contemporary or dynamic, they don't appeal to her.[/quote]how could the entire population of Christians constitute His One Body, His One Church when "truth" is constantly contradicted? truth is objective, there is only one, and it HAS to exist somewhere!! this one truth simply does not exist within this loosely connected (if not entirely disjointed) mass of Christians. how can it if we all disagree and we all have our own opinions on what the reeeeal truth is? it is only logical that this truth instead exists w/in one of these many churches, the rest of them containing only partial truths. if i believe in my heart that the Catholic Church contains this truth, how can i forsake this church in some attempt to keep from putting God "in a box"?

plus, when we say that the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth, we are not putting God in a box. we gladly recognize the movement of the Spirit in other churches and we would be ignorant to deny that many, MANY individuals have come to Christ through these churches. we merely contend that there is a more perfect way. we contend that the spiritual journey does not stop w/ faith that Jesus saves us. it must mature and grow towards fuller knowledge of Christ, of salvation, and of His Church. we must not settle. we must constantly seek the truth and wisdom of the Spirit in its fullness. of course, this only exists in one place.

as for the Church not being appealing b/c it is not "dynamic" or "contemporary" i think it is important to help those who make this claim to realize that they are forsaking truth for a feeling. is that why we go to church, to feel good? i go to Church to worship my God in Spirit and in Truth. if this means quiet reverence, then so be it. if this means discipline, so be it. if this means a small degree of mortification, so be it. once you realize that these are valid ways to worship our Lord and that they are FILLED with Spirit and Truth, then these too become dynamic and "spirit-filled." one quickly realizes that he was naive to think that the presence of the Spirit depended upon a certain style of music.

[quote]5. A college girl whose family might disown her if she became Catholic, so she is settling for the Episcopal Church, which though they are uncomfortable with, is nonetheless better than the whore of Babylon. She still feels drawn to the True Church, however. Especially after hearing Scott Hahn speak in person.[/quote]
but what did Jesus say?

[b]Mat 10:31-39[/b]
[b]31 [/b]Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
[b]32 [/b]So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;
[b]33 [/b]but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
[b]34 [/b]"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
[b]35 [/b][b]For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's foes will be those of his own household.[/b]
[b]37 [/b]He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
[b]38 [/b]and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
[b]39 [/b]He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

i understand how truly difficult this decision can be. it is daunting and overwhelming to think that one could lose his entire family b/c of his faith in Jesus Christ. but, this is what it takes to be a true disciple of Him. salvation through Jesus Christ is worth losing everything. "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last." eventually, this person has to realize that in "settling" for another religion, he is forsaking Truth for a lie, and Jesus Christ for the acceptance of his family. this is a harsh reality, but it is also the truth of the matter.

[quote]What style of love and apologetics might be appropriate for each of these people and their situations? What would you do? And what would you say?[/quote]
i realize that my responses here may be a little blunt or straight-forward. it may be up to you to speak the truth in a way that will allow them to receive it. however, the truth is often offensive to those who can't accept it, so you'll have to prepare yourself for the fact that, no matter how charitable you are, your words and your intentions may be rejected--even harshly.

good luck with this. i hope that i have helped.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

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"good luck with this. i hope that i have helped."

-- you always do. Thank you, as always. I find myself feeling so sad over friends and family not in the Church...lol, even though I'm not even confirmed yet!

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[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Sep 6 2004, 07:29 PM'] "good luck with this. i hope that i have helped."

-- you always do. Thank you, as always. I find myself feeling so sad over friends and family not in the Church...lol, even though I'm not even confirmed yet! [/quote]
i know how you feel. i would elaborate but i am afraid the person i would be speaking of might read this and get the wrong idea. you just have to pray every day for their conversion and do what you can to be a good example and to reflect Jesus Christ and His Church in everything that you say and do

easier said then done............but it is the task before us

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