goldenchild17 Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Here's a situation. What is the Catholic teaching in regards to the following... There's a girl who lives in a counrty in Africa. Lets call her Jess (ya, thats an American name i know, but its ok). Now jess is just like all of her other tribes people. She lives in her little village of houses make from trees and roofs made of leaves and lives a normal life. Over the years she has a family, grandkids and eventually she dies of old age. Throughout her whole life Jess never had a religion. None of her tribe people had religions either. She never even thought about any gods, or the afterlife and no missionarys ever came to her village. So basicly she doesnt know what religion is. After she died did she go to heaven? She in a sense didnt do anything wrong because she never herd or knew of God or belived in any false gods as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Catholic Catechism : 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 6, 2004 Author Share Posted September 6, 2004 Perfect. Thanks very much. I swear there's nothing I can't get an answer to here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 lol yw heehe yep the Apologetics phorum is a great place to find answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Hmm... But did she actually seek the Truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 If you never heard the Truth how can you seek it? In Jess's case she didn't even know that Jesus or God for that matter existed so God really can't count that against her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 I know but she could ask herself why she exists. I think we all ask that question at some point, however, so it would be almost impossible for somebody to live their whole life without seeking some degree of truth. Of course, God's omniscience would also allow Him to know if she would accept His message if she heard it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Right but what would she answer herself if she asked herself what was her purpose, why is she here? Would she all of a sudden go, "HEY!! There's a God who created us?" Maybe she would have a thought that there is some being greater than her. In that case that being would be God. Then she would still know that there is God and thus go to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 [quote name='goldenchild17' date='Sep 6 2004, 02:08 AM'] Here's a situation. What is the Catholic teaching in regards to the following... There's a girl who lives in a counrty in Africa. Lets call her Jess (ya, thats an American name i know, but its ok). Now jess is just like all of her other tribes people. She lives in her little village of houses make from trees and roofs made of leaves and lives a normal life. Over the years she has a family, grandkids and eventually she dies of old age. Throughout her whole life Jess never had a religion. None of her tribe people had religions either. She never even thought about any gods, or the afterlife and no missionarys ever came to her village. So basicly she doesnt know what religion is. After she died did she go to heaven? She in a sense didnt do anything wrong because she never herd or knew of God or belived in any false gods as well. [/quote] No, she did not go to Heaven. The Church teaches the necessity of Baptism to be saved. Unbaptized infants (or those who never know right from wrong, she would be considered here) go to a place called Limbo, which is a part of Hell. It is not defined by the Church, but if Limbo is rejected, then one must say she went to Hell. However, I seriously doubt such a situation exists in which she responded to all the graces God gave her and she is in no way culpable. St. Thomas Aquinas said that if such a person existed, an Angel could come to teach him about the Church so he could be baptized (I tyhink the Angel would baptize him, St. Thomas said, or he could teach him how to instruct someone else to baptize him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 Let's all read this again shall we: 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. [b]Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. [/b] If you look carefully " truth" is not capitalized in the sense of meaning the Truth. This is saying that those who are ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and his Church are not held accountable because it is through no fault of their own that they have been secluded from this information. [quote]does the will of God in accordance [b]with his understanding of it, can be saved.[b] [/quote] Now... this follows the statement of being ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, "with his understanding of it" this could apply in this case as meaning that even though "Jess" was ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and His Church it does not stop her from being a good person and following the commandments even though she doesn't know what they are. If "Jess' strives to be a good person and is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, I believe that God in His [b]Infinite[/b] Mercy will spare her from damnation. in ending : [b]It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 HartfordWhalers, I have heard of Aquinas saying that, but I've never gotten a source for the quote. I've only found it in Feeneyite writings, uncited. If you have the source, please tell us here. As for Feeneyism: [url="http://www.cathworld.org/worlds/bible/thedude/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.cathworld.org/worlds/bible/thed...tfeeneyism.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 hartford, peep the link that "thedude" provided Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Unfortunately, I cannot find the exact reference at this time, but I can promise you it exists because I did not read it via "a Feenyite website" but in the Summa itself while I was reading about something else and came upong it. While again searching for the quote from St. Thomas, I came upon this: [url="http://www.oltyn.com/invig.htm"]http://www.oltyn.com/invig.htm[/url], which is an actual writing of a Priest in the 1800s. He quotes: " "Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic Faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance." (St. Thomas Aquinas)" Regarding ignorance: "Unbelief has a double sense. First, it can be taken purely negatively; thus a man is called an unbeliever solely because he does not possess faith. Secondly, by way of opposition to faith; thus when a man refuses to hear of the faith or even contemns it, according to Isaiah, Who has believed our report? This is where the full nature of unbelief, properly speaking is found, and where the sin lies. If, however, unbelief be taken just negatively, as in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of fault, but of penalty, because their ignorance of divine things is the result of the sin of our first parents. Those who are unbelievers in this sense are not condemned for the sin of unbelief, but they are condemned on account of other sins, which cannot be forgiven without faith.” (Summa Theologica 2, 2, 10, 1) I will read your article if you will read this: [[color=red][b]edited by phatcatholic: link to feenyite website[/b][/color]] Edited September 7, 2004 by phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) [quote name='goldenchild17' date='Sep 6 2004, 05:38 PM'] Here's a situation. What is the Catholic teaching in regards to the following... There's a girl who lives in a counrty in Africa. Lets call her Jess (ya, thats an American name i know, but its ok). Now jess is just like all of her other tribes people. She lives in her little village of houses make from trees and roofs made of leaves and lives a normal life. Over the years she has a family, grandkids and eventually she dies of old age. Throughout her whole life Jess never had a religion. None of her tribe people had religions either. She never even thought about any gods, or the afterlife and no missionarys ever came to her village. So basicly she doesnt know what religion is. After she died did she go to heaven? She in a sense didnt do anything wrong because she never herd or knew of God or belived in any false gods as well. [/quote] Yes. The [i]Invinicible Ignorance[/i] teaching would apply. Edited September 7, 2004 by MorphRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 [quote name='MorphRC' date='Sep 7 2004, 02:00 AM'] Yes. The [i]Invinicible Ignorance[/i] teaching would apply. [/quote] Please read the writing I referenced: [url="http://www.oltyn.com/invig.htm"]http://www.oltyn.com/invig.htm[/url] Invincible ignorance neither saves nor condemns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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