goldenchild17 Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 Hey, I got myself into a discussion on this. And I didn't do as much research as I probably could have. Here is my first argument. Was it way off or what? [quote]I don't believe that we can know that the Bible is infallible just because it may say so. Many books say that they are infallible, such as the Koran for example. We must first understand that it is a very historically accurate book(New Testament at least). In this book we see that there is a man claiming to be God(Jesus). This man went through a lot, dying as he did, suffering as he did. Many will say that this was just a crazy man dying for a cause that doesn't exist. However, we need to look back further. There are books in the bible that were written long before the events of Jesus' life took place(and I mean LONG before). These books contained prophecies about this man's(Jesus') life. They said that he would be born of a virgin(Mary) and that he would suffer and die. I mean so many things were prophesied about him. Actually here's a list I found of a good number of these propecies. Here's a link to it, since it's too long to post here... [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ98.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ98.HTM[/url] (Click on the second to last hyperlink: XIII. FIFTY O.T. MESSIANIC PROPHECIES FULFILLED BY JESUS. This will take you to the list). Anyways, if we can determine that Jesus(and all he did for us) is for real, then we should take His teaching to heart. One of the biggest things that Jesus did during His lifetime(and is recorded in Scripture) is to establish a Church. This Church He said was to be the pillar and foundation of ALL truth(1 Tim. 3:15). This Church was to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all things pertaining to the truth. Well, if this is true(and I believe it is) then we can know for CERTAIN that the Bible is true, not because it says so, but because the Man named Jesus(also God) told us that the Church is to guide us in truth and the Church says that the Bible is true. The Church gave us the truth, she determined which books were part of the Divine Revelation of God. This is how we can know that the Bible is true.[/quote] If I am possibly on the right track, how can I expound upon it, make it better. It was a bit rushed(I should be more careful, but it's done now...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 You could get some stuff from this: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 5, 2004 Author Share Posted September 5, 2004 Thanks, that's a good link. I'll include that. I don't think my response was that far off, not nearly as well worded of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 I thought it was good. That should help, I found it a help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 goldenchild, your argument constitutes circular reasoning. the bible is true b/c the church is true b/c the bible is true b/c the church is true.....this weakens your argument. to fix it, you need to prove that one of them is infallible w/o assuming that the other one is. just some constructive criticism pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 6, 2004 Author Share Posted September 6, 2004 Thanks. That wasn't quite what I was trying to say though. I was trying to say that first we look at the Bible as a book that is historically accurate. This does not make it infallible. So I am starting out with the book not being infallible. Then I see the historical book relate the life of Jesus. Jesus claims to be God. If He is God, and if all that He did is true, then we should believe what He taught(not because it is in the Bible, the book at this point is only historically relating His teaching). If He is God, then His teachings are the truth. You understand me so far? And one of Jesus' teachings was that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, and that the Church is to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all matters of truth. So, now if Jesus is God and is speaking the truth, then we have the Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth and this Church(by the help of the Holy Spirit) gave us what we know is the Bible. I started out saying the Bible was simply a book of historical accuracy(N.T. at least) and historically if Jesus is God(which He claimed to be), then we can know that the Church was infallibly guided in giving us the Bible. First step: Historical book. Last step: Infallible and inspired book. Could you show me how this is circular so I can fix it? I think the important player is objectively determining whether Jesus is God. I think the whole explanation hinges on that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 goldenchild17 I agree with what you wrote but it could be stated a little clearer. Here is how I answered the question in the past. [quote]Every usable argument begins with an assumption, something that you do not doubt. I am assuming that you are a Christian and that Christ is the starting point on which you do not doubt. (If this is not the case then we need to back up and start on an assumption we can both agree on.) As a Catholic, my Church is not Bible based. It is Christ based. Christ established a Church and the Church through the Holy Spirit wrote and recognized what books are inspired in the Bible. So how do I now that the Bible is inerrant? I do not give circular reasoning that because the Bible says that it is inerrant, it therefore inerrant. If the logic of this argument were true then the Book of Mormon and the Koran would also be inspired. The answer that I know of is that the Bible is inerrant because Christ established a Church that attests to the Bible being the Word of God. This is the only logical answer that I know that connects the Bible historically, by the Holy Spirit, to Christ. Does this mean that the Church is not subordinate to the Bible? In reality it is not a Bible Vs. Church issue. The Bible is the Word of God and the Church is the Body of Christ (i.e. God). They both have the same spirit. They have their same source and they are apart of the same reality. To pit one against another is like ripping off Christ’s arm and beating him with it. Some Bible beating Christian’s I know actually do this. (I’m joking) In some ways this is what has happened in Christianity when Martin Luther used Bible alone to tear Christianity apart into over 28,000 denominations and growing. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted September 6, 2004 Author Share Posted September 6, 2004 Okay, yeah that's what I was trying to say... I need to work on how I word things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) [quote name='goldenchild17' date='Sep 6 2004, 02:30 PM'] Okay, yeah that's what I was trying to say... I need to work on how I word things... [/quote] This is one of those things that we will never stop working on. In fact I struggle at getting ideas down in a clear, simple, concise manner all the time. I have to revise my post more than once before I post it and even with this it could be better. But it is essential if we want to communicate the truths of our faith. Edited September 7, 2004 by Cure of Ars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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